How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Raven Crowking]

Fighters in 4e can preform the amazing stunts that they do because of hard work, training, and innate talent.

True

As they fight creatures of increasing power they learn, from experience, how perform amazing stunts of Epic proportions. The majority of people in the Known World simply couldn't even try most of the stunts pulled by fighters. This is a major part of the implied setting of 4e.

Also true.

If you hadn't put the words "not magic" in there, it would be as true as the statement I made.

AFAICT, the remainder of your statements in this post are false.


RC

 

[Fanaelialae]

If you hadn't put the words "not magic" in there, it would be as true as the statement I made.

RC, just so we're clear, when you say "magic" do you really just mean "non-simulationist"? If not, what DO you mean when you refer to "magic"?

 

[Imaro]

Well besides CaGI I also think Unyielding Avalanche borders on "magical" in nature... I mean shouldn't actual regeneration, especially when one is exerting even more energy into a fight, be considered a magical ability? I almost wish 4e had taken a lesson from Earthdawn where they explicitely state a Warrior is able to do the extraordinary because he channels the magic of the world into his actions, instead of ignoring some of the implications many of the "martial" powers create.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well besides CaGI I also think Unyielding Avalanche borders on "magical" in nature... I mean shouldn't actual regeneration, especially when one is exerting even more energy into a fight, be considered a magical ability? I almost wish 4e had taken a lesson from Earthdawn where they explicitely state a Warrior is able to do the extraordinary because he channels the magic of the world into his actions, instead of ignoring some of the implications many of the "martial" powers create.

Remember that in 4E healing can be mental and/or physical. Martial powers like Unyielding Avalanche are mental in nature; the fighter is so determined to persevere that he shrugs off injuries like they are nothing. IMO, it's no worse than the 3.x barbarian's damage reduction (which one would also likely imagine as being mental in nature if one wishes to avoid silliness).

 

[fanboy2000]

AFAICT, the remainder of your statements in this post are false.

Makes sense. I'm glad you agree that this statement is false:

it can't be a matter of personal taste.

Because I was getting a little worried there.

Whew.

 

[Imaro]

Remember that in 4E healing can be mental and/or physical. Martial powers like Unyielding Avalanche are mental in nature; the fighter is so determined to persevere that he shrugs off injuries like they are nothing. IMO, it's no worse than the 3.x barbarian's damage reduction (which one would also likely imagine as being mental in nature if one wishes to avoid silliness).

See I would be inclined to agree with you, except for a few factors...

1. The Fighter is actually regaining previous damage taken, not pushing through it temporarily (temporary hit points).

2. It's not actually his own healing reserves or ability he's using (in the form of healing surges being spent) so where is this healing coming from? Regardles of whether it's mental, physical, spiritual or whatever... the normal way actual healing works in 4e is through healing surges (I mean even healing potions work this way) yet the fighter is drawing on some ouside force to heal himself in this instance.

3. This healing is endless (according to the definition of regeneration) unless the fighter is brought to zero hit points it will never go away... ever. He can wake up the next day and still be regenerating... two weeks from now and he's still regenerating unless something knocks him to zero or less hit points.

I'm sorry this sounds like magic to me.

 

[Fanaelialae]

See I would be inclined to agree with you, except for a few factors...

1. The Fighter is actually regaining previous damage taken, not pushing through it temporarily (temporary hit points).

2. It's not actually his own healing reserves or ability he's using (in the form of healing surges being spent) so where is this healing coming from? Regardles of whether it's mental, physical, spiritual or whatever... the normal way actual healing works in 4e is through healing surges (I mean even healing potions work this way) yet the fighter is drawing on some ouside force to heal himself in this instance.

3. This healing is endless (according to the definition of regeneration) unless the fighter is brought to zero hit points it will never go away... ever. He can wake up the next day and still be regenerating... two weeks from now and he's still regenerating unless something knocks him to zero or less hit points.

I'm sorry this sounds like magic to me.

3. The healing is not limitless. Since Unyielding Avalanche is a stance, it "lasts until the end of the encounter, for 5 minutes, or until you use another stance power" (PHB pg 55). Since it is a daily it can be used once per day (for a maximum of one encounter or 5 minutes). So no worries about unlimited healing.

2. The typical way that 4E handles healing is through healing surges. However, it is an exception based system. In this case, the resource the fighter expends is a daily power. Nowhere in the PHB does is say that the entirety of a character's toughness is defined by his healing surges.

1. So you're saying that the only way to model shrugging off injuries is using temporary hp? Remember that the hp system in 4E (and really all editions of D&D) is abstract. HP "represent your character's skill, luck and resolve" in addition to physical endurance (PHB pg 293). It doesn't seem far fetched to me that this power is primarily "regenerating" the fighter's resolve.

Which doesn't seem necessarily magical to me at all.

 

[Henry]

See I would be inclined to agree with you, except for a few factors...

1. The Fighter is actually regaining previous damage taken, not pushing through it temporarily (temporary hit points).

You're talking game constructs, though -- temp hit points are not described absolutely as "pushing through it temporarily" and regeneration is not specifically defined as "making open wounds close." Remember, illusions can cause "psychic damage", and regen heals those, too; attacks don't always result in physical wounds, and hit points have always never meant "physical damage only."

2. It's not actually his own healing reserves or ability he's using (in the form of healing surges being spent) so where is this healing coming from? Regardles of whether it's mental, physical, spiritual or whatever... the normal way actual healing works in 4e is through healing surges (I mean even healing potions work this way) yet the fighter is drawing on some outside force to heal himself in this instance.

However, it's not the only way healing is done. I'll admit, I don't like Regen as a mechanic available to martial PCs, just like I agree come and get it probably should have some provisions against some opponents - but by the same token it isn't impossible to think of Regen as just another way to represent a martial PC fighting well past the point he should be dead (namely, out of healing surges), a point which would have anyone else on the ground bleeding out.

3. This healing is endless (according to the definition of regeneration) unless the fighter is brought to zero hit points it will never go away... ever. He can wake up the next day and still be regenerating... two weeks from now and he's still regenerating unless something knocks him to zero or less hit points.

I'm sorry this sounds like magic to me.

If we're talking boundless endurance, it only lasts until end of the encounter, because it's a stance (looked it up on DDI). It doesn't last all day, just five minutes, which means when the fight's done, their wellspring of last-ditch energy is done with.

 

[Ariosto]

... those people have no imagination whatsoever.

Like Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax, whose imaginations created this hobby, eh? The fact is simply that they did not design Dungeons & Dragons to reflect the particular influences of which you are a fanboy. We're not discussing Toon, say, or Macho Women With Guns.

 

[Imaro]

3. The healing is not limitless. Since Unyielding Avalanche is a stance, it "lasts until the end of the encounter, for 5 minutes, or until you use another stance power" (PHB pg 55). Since it is a daily it can be used once per day (for a maximum of one encounter or 5 minutes). So no worries about unlimited healing.

You are more than likely right as I am going by memory right now.

2. The typical way that 4E handles healing is through healing surges. However, it is an exception based system. In this case, the resource the fighter expends is a daily power. Nowhere in the PHB does is say that the entirety of a character's toughness is defined by his healing surges.

So...because everything is an exception, there is no baseline for powers to be categorized as far as magic vs. mundane... as they will always be exceptions. This makes it fundamentally impossible to draw any distinction between magic, mundane and anything else when it comes to PC's in D&D 4e. Essentially magic was the force that allowed one to create exceptions to the game rules as well as the rules of the fantasy world one was playing in... thus if all powers now do this, they have in fact all become magic. See IMO, a martial master would be someone who works within the reality or rules of the game to achieve greatness, while a magician or magic-user is one who breaks said rules to achieve greatness. Sort of similar to the followers of Law and Chaos in many of Moorcock's stories. Now however everyone is a manipulator and breaker of reality and game rules...mages

1. So you're saying that the only way to model shrugging off injuries is using temporary hp? Remember that the hp system in 4E (and really all editions of D&D) is abstract. HP "represent your character's skill, luck and resolve" in addition to physical endurance (PHB pg 293). It doesn't seem far fetched to me that this power is primarily "regenerating" the fighter's resolve.

First I didn't use the word only in any of my posts... however if there is no difference between regeneration, temporary hit points, using a second wind, etc. why do all of these different mechaics exist? If they all model the same thing then I would have to say it is both bad and wasted design to create fifty million ways to represent what is fundamentally the exact same thing. I do not believe the designers of D&D 4e are wasteful or bad at their job, thus I must believe these mechanics actually represent fundamentally different things as opposed to the same thing with a million different names.

A second point is that there is still an amount of hit points that represent physical damage... not all but some. regeneration allows one to heal it in seconds as opposed to minutes or days.

Which doesn't seem necessarily magical to me at all.

I'm sorry but having Wolverine's mutant healing factor (even for 5 minutes) is magical IMO. We can of course agree to disagree.