How is the warlock not overpowered?

[CrimsonWineGlass]

Okay, I have noticed a lot of warlock love. I personally like the class for its flair and the simplistic way it captured darker and more demonic magic. I also remember reading the class and thinking "What a game breaker" due to its sheer power. It can do effective sneak attack damage once per round with a ranged touch attack potentially 300 feet away at first level. That is a lot, its not as much as a well placed fire ball, but it also has less restrictions. You add on that they have multiple incantations that last all day. Spider climb and flight come to mind without the book as well as multiple replications of other spells. Combine this with DR and a multitude of special abilities that are quite useful and a notable skill list and a D6 hit dice. Why is it that I am the only one who does not think this to be overpowered. I haven't seen it used in a game outside a low level game (in which I would say it is mostly balanced) and I'm just wondering. I know optimization of a warlock is harder than most classes, but its naturally a god from my view.

 

[3d6]

The reason most people don't think its overpowered is because its a pretty weak class. If you've seen it in a low-level game, you've seen the peak of its power; the warlock is most competitive at 1st level, when it deals as much damage as the wizard. Starting at 2nd level, it falls farther and farther behind.

 

[Nail]

If you've seen it in a low-level game, you've seen the peak of its power; the warlock is most competitive at 1st level, when it deals as much damage as the wizard. Starting at 2nd level, it falls farther and farther behind.

Exactly.

IIRC, play-testing has shown a warlock to be - at best - a balanced class. At worst, it's under-powered. A Warlock can use feats to increase it's damage output, but it can't keep up with the usual arcane classes. It's other abilities are limited, so not the deciding factor.

I'm hoping that soon a player of mine will take a warlock, so I can see them in action.

 

[nittanytbone]

The warlock is generally inferior to a pure caster (cleric or wizard). This is due to the restrictiveness/lack of flexibility of invocation selection and the mediocre damge output of Eldritch Blast.

There are some situations in which case Warlocks are more potent:

With a Fast-Paced DM: Wizards (and to a lesser extent other prepared casters) thrive on downtime. They need time to aquire new spells and copy them into their tome. They need time to make scrolls. They need time to sit down and memorize a proper spell loadout for the day. If the DM keeps the party continually on the run and interrupts rest cycles, a warlock is great because he can keep going indefinitely.

With an Inexperienced Player: Warlocks are easy to play as there are few resources to manage. All you have to worry about are your HP and your consumables (Scrolls, potions, etc). Wizards and other prepared casters must juggle HP, consumables, and their spell slots. A skilled and experienced player can easily juggle all these factors and get maximum mileage out of the versatility of a prepared caster, but a newbie might not understand good spell management (perhaps feeling a need to use a spell every single round, or on the other hand being too stingy and not using their spells up, or perhaps not even memorizing something useful). Sorcerers and spontaneous casters represent a middle ground between the two extremes.

With a predictable DM: If a certain invocation will ALWAYS be useful, then Warlocks are great. If you know your DM loves to include vertical challenges in every encounter, having continuous fly or spider climb is handy. Likewise, if your DM loves social encounters, Beguiling Influence is wonderful for a social character. If the DM mixes challenges up, then warlocks will find that they are hurting for versatility.

 

[Kurotowa]

The damage is nothing special. A Rogue is adding those Sneak Attack dice to weapon damage, and between TWF and Iterative Attacks can do that much damage multiple times in a single round. A Warlock has exactly two ways to deal their Eldritch Blast damage more than once a round (Quicken SLA and Eldritch Glaive), and both have severe shortcomings. Compared to any serious damage dealing class they fall far behind.

The rest of the invocations are handy, and you can run roughshod over an unprepared DM by using Flee the Scene or Baleful Utterance to teleport around or shatter through every lock and obstacle. But for raw power they're not so great. Casters get spells in more variety and levels more powerful. In actual play they're a very resilient grab bag of tricks that's unlikely to overshadow anyone else, much less come close to overpowering things.

 

[frankthedm]

Overall it seems like a decent class, there are some issues with how some invocations can drastically affect some adventure types, but as long as:

Magic items are a salable commodity in the setting
Magic is as commonly available as the ruleset assumes
The normal breakneck speed character level advancement system is used.

The warlock is more or less a balanced class.

Without magic items semi commonly available for sale, the warlock takes a hit in the pull his own weight department since several things he cannot do in the blaster / sneaker party slot on his own are easily relieved with a selection of scrolls and wands. But when normal casters did not have the option to buy, oh say a wand of shatter or a staff of fire, that makes the warlock stronger because his unlimited uses of those abilities now shine even greater. Also since the setting has less magic to go around, fewer places will have counter measures to deal with warlock abilities. If in a setting, an important countermeasure to invisibility is it only lasts so long and a caster can only cast it so often, the warlock gets around that.

If the players advance slower than normal, that makes the warlock much stronger. In games that will run for a while, spell casters have to ration their wands and charged items, since they will be at a power level where their wands are still modestly useful for a while. With the default advancement rate, a caster has to really try to burn through wands [other than Cure wands] to run out before the wand is too weak in comparison to the challenges being faced. The warlock does no have to do this rationing.

13.5 encounters a level was the default assumption for 3e. That means if you uses a wand once an encounter, it might last for 4 levels and most likely not be that useful by that time. Using it twice an encounter means that it lasts for two levels and by then trading in might have been sounding like a godd idea anyhow. Using it every round [typicly 3.5 rounds for how 3E combat goes] means that one level later the wand is used up, costly, but thanks to the power increase the loot has been coming in hand over fist so it was worth it. This speed of usage means a warlock’s ‘unlimited’ usage of blasts and invocations does not outshine the normal casters.

In a game with slower advancement however, treasure also comes at a slower pace, burning through a wand in less than a level will seriously crimp the characters cash flow, the warlock in this situation has a serious advantage.

Warlock is a great "no paperwork" magic user, as you don't have to keep track of spell slots, spells memorized, spell points, or anything resource based like that (with the exception of a 1/day fiendish resiliance, gained at higher levels). That makes me like it right there.

Oh, they are a very simple, the fun never ends untill you run out of HP class. They are what a Caster in Iron Heroes should have operated like.. if not for the setting's "Magic is too dangerous to rely on" mission statement. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=183170

 

[werk]

We're currently playing low level and when a player started to make a sorcerer and started to complain about the sorcerer right out of the gate, I made the suggestion to try a warlock. Best Advice Ever!

Now he is the star of the campaign zapping anything and everything. The wizxard of the same level with a few wands looks like a schmuck in comparison. You just gotta love low level play.

Levels will limit his power, but even then, unlimited ranged touch for (level/2)d6 is pretty darn good. Everything else falls in the utility column, being able to add to their blast (range, shape, delivery, add conditions) or add to themselves (devil sight, see invis, fly)...they are a one trick pony, but that one trick is quite nice.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Exactly.

IIRC, play-testing has shown a warlock to be - at best - a balanced class. At worst, it's under-powered. A Warlock can use feats to increase it's damage output, but it can't keep up with the usual arcane classes. It's other abilities are limited, so not the deciding factor.

I'm hoping that soon a player of mine will take a warlock, so I can see them in action.

Yep. It's, if anything, a touch weak. Yeah, 3d6 ranged touch attacks ad infinitum are interesting at 5th level, but already the wizard's popping out a fireball and doing as much damage to 4+ targets. Move it up 10 levels, and the 8d6/round the warlock's putting out pales in comparison to the wizard's Fire Brand or Cone of Cold.

While the warlock can pump out (conceivably) thousands of d6s in damage/day, it takes far more actions for it to output the same damage a wizard/sorceror/psion can, and the more actions the target gets, the more it can hurt you and/or your party.

I'm playing one right now, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not terribly impressed. It's certainly simple to play, but most of my contribution to the party is via Use Magic Device, not my invocations.

Brad

 

[irdeggman]

Don't forget the fact that it is a feat-starved class. That is it gets no bonus feats and at its core it really needs them.

If only going with the "blaster" approach (not something that is "required by the way} 2 feats that are a "must" are:

Point Blank Shot

Precise Shot (which has PBS as a prerequisite).

Without those the shooting into melee penalties can really deter the benefit.

When Improved Precise Shot can be acquired (but that has a +11 BAB prerequisite) {15th level for a straight warlock character} it has been pretty much bypassed in its usefulness, IMO.

Don't forget that the Eldritch Blast is susceptible to SR.

 

[frankthedm]

Don't forget that the Eldritch Blast is susceptible to SR.

Making the NO SR Vitrolic blast a "No-Choice" choice.