How Is There Still PCGen?

[Leopold]

They should be glad to have this program of yours to input new d20 data on their own. But the program should not include data from copyrighted material of which you did not secure the publisher's permission.

i cannot agree with you more on this statement

Like I said, if you have Wizards' permission to use Star Wars information and include it in the freeware PCGen as a bonus to distribute, then that is great. I won't bother you. But if you don't, then by law you are in violation.

i believe we do, but for safety sake we removed all reference to star wars till clarification has been made for the full release version. The beta version still has the star wars, fr, greyhawk material there but the full release does not till clarification has been made. We wish to do everythin in our power to keep the folks at WOTC happy and to allow us to use their material under the rules that they allow us to. Violating this 'gentlemens agreement' harms not only us but the industry in general.

You can try and secure other third-party d20 publisher's permission, such AEG's Spycraft and use that as a selling point. After all, you did advertise that this is a generic d20 electronic aid, am I correct?

who said anything about selling? Where did this come from? We will never ever ever have a price tag on this work. It's in violation of the licensing we use and against all that this application is built upon.


We did get AEG's spycraft permission from Patrick Kapera the main guy in charge of spycraft. With his help and work we managed to get that code in place and working. He made a nice announcement about it on his website and look forward to doing it again with him in the future.

And yes we say that PCGen is a generic D20 electronic aid for not only the gamer but for the publishers as well.

 

[Ranger REG]

I apologize for using the wrong term. When I mean by "using it as a selling point," I mean to say "use it to as a best advertising pitch for your freeware to the public, especially toward d20 gamers."

However, you could market it. I mean you really have something going on here, and I give credit where credit is due. But if you prefer to keep the program as freeware, then you may have to consider the option of open-sourcing your program so other programmers can improve upon it. Of course, you may already have been considering it, so my statement is a moot point.

 

[LightPhoenix]

If WotC hasn't done anything about it by now, I highly doubt they will in the future.

 

[Leopold]

I apologize for using the wrong term. When I mean by "using it as a selling point," I mean to say "use it to as a best advertising pitch for your freeware to the public, especially toward d20 gamers."

However, you could market it. I mean you really have something going on here, and I give credit where credit is due. But if you prefer to keep the program as freeware, then you may have to consider the option of open-sourcing your program so other programmers can improve upon it. Of course, you may already have been considering it, so my statement is a moot point.

but it is freeware and it is opensource silly! . anyone can come along and take the pcgen information and say ohhhh make it into software to code how to program a toaster or anything. Anyone can take the data in the .lst files and use it for whatever purposes they want. Will it do them any good? probably not. It's all kept as bland and blasee as possible to make sure that the IP is protected for the publishers.

If someone wants access to the code and wants to alter it or change it, like any other application on sourceforge or built on the GPL platform, all they have to do is give the PCGen team credit on it and they can alter it to their hearts content. Heck WOTC could've taken pcgen, slapped a pretty gui on it and sold it as E-Tools for all we care. That is the price and beauty of Open Licencisng like Linux has.

 

[Ranger REG]

Like I said, consider my statement moot.

 

[Mynex]

Let me step in here please

Several points to make, so I'll try to be brief.

1) This thread started near to being a flame against PCGen. That is unnecessary and uncalled for.

2) The Wizards boards have a wonderful tendancy to be EXTREMELY rude to anything non wizards, Ranger, you can attest to this, we've exchanged posts there before.

3) PCGen is Free, will stay free, will NEVER be charged for. We use the Lesser General Public License (v2.1) on Source Forge. This is EXACTLY whay it will stay free. Open Source Software is just that, Open Source.

4) As noted previously, Gen Con is NOT owned by Wizards anymore, it is owned by Peter Adkinson, and yes, we have reached a limited licensing agreement to use the phrase 'PCGenCon World Tour 2002' on our shirts. (The GenCon name is a trademark of GenCon LLC).

5) We have had exactly _ONE_ publisher tell us flat out no. We have had 2 publishers give is a nod, but not 'official permission'. The rest have given us official permission (and if I am mistaken, I would beg them to contact me so we can correct any issues they may have). We have had numerous publishers come to us (mostly the last few months) and ask US to add their stuff in, some before it even hits the shelves/internet.

6) We have contacted ALL the publishers we have, even a few we do not yet. Some later than others and for that I do apologize. The reason for that lateness is due to protocols being recently (last few months) being instituted to make sure we do things correctly and politely with the publishers.

7) We are not bound by the D20/OGL licensing issues, but we are bound by the 'Gentlemens Agreement' andour integrity and word that we will do _EVERYTHING_ we can to protect a publishers PI. We have numerous publishers that have granted us the PI rights to use the names and 1 line 'flavor' text of feats. NO WHERE else do we use PI, if it slips in (as was more often in the past, but VERY rare now), we correct it as soon as we notice it. Which is generally before any publisher would have to contact us about it, and to date, no publisher HAS contacted us about PI being used.

8) We include mechanics only (expecting the noted cases above in point 7). This means exactly what others have pointed out, you MUST HAVE access to the source in question to know what a given feat/skill/spell/class/etc does for game play. PCGen is a character generator, nothing more, nothing less. It's note a replacement for the books, it's a supplement to them.

Those are the general statements, now let me hit the specific points others raised.

1) Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Call of Cthulhu, Forgotten Realms, etc... Specific game worlds/settings... something to think about here.
I just used those copyrighted names in a public forum, hence those names are being distributed in an electronic format across the internet. Am I or Morrus going to get sued? No, why? They're names. They tell you nothing about them. The same holds true for PCGen, yes you can make a character with PCGen for those worlds, but you know nothing about the actual underlying world itself. Mechanics, not flavor is what PCGen is all about.

2) Pcgen is not 'Stealing' anything from anybody. Period.

3) PCGen is NOT in direct competition with E-Tools, regardless of what anybody says. Our goal is NOT to sink E-Tools, or cause it to lose sales. As noted elsewhere in this thread, it is an all volunteer, fan based, passion for the game. And we make no money. We do it because we love the game and the software.

4) Wizards has said in the past that any software character creation tool must have the mechanics in a 'Human Readable Format'. Yes? PCGen does. They're called list files. And all they are, are text files given the extension .lst instead of .txt or .doc or .whatever. And that is ALL they've said about software so far.

5) Java and the GUI. If you haven't used PCGen in the last month, then you have NO room to complain about the UI, it's drastically different and a hell of a lot faster than ever, and it's getting faster every release. Divorce Java from PCGen, if you don't understand the differences, then you have NO right or reason to slam PCGen due to speed, memory leaks, or your system crashing. I do Tech support for a living, and most problems are user created by NOT READING THE DOCUMENTATION.

6) Since that was just mentioned, Documentation. A pet peeve of mine. Flat out, the existing docs suck. That is fixed now. For the production release (Still and always free) and from now on, the documentation is completely up to date, explains EVERYTHING in simple clear, concise directions on how to use PCGen, the tags used in the list files explained a LOT clearer, etc... everything about them is better. How do I know this? I just finished revamping them, with input from Leopold (Most of the walkthrough section) and a few of the code monkeys. Currently it is made for IE/Netscape web interface, but will soon (prob after GenCon) come in PDF and plain txt versions as well.

There's more I want to address, but I'm not going to type anymore at the moment... a few final things to think about though...

Why are people so anti-PCGen?
So much discussion over PCGen, what about Twin rose and Tablesmith and the like, where's the 'hot debate' over them, some of them charge.
If Wizards was THAT worried about PCGen smashing E-Tools into the ground, why didn't they squash it several years ago, BEFORE PCGen even got rolling? Hell M/E-Tools has been in development longer than PCGen has been around!
I was on Beta for M/E-tools, I made no bones about my work on PCGen, It was known when I was selected, it was known while I was in the beta, and every one of my messages had my sig line in there of 'PCGen Doc & lst file Silverback' You think THAT was glossed over? Hell no.

And finally, please, PLEASE, let's refrain the slanderous attacks on PCGen. If people want to debate the pro/cons, I'm more than happy to, hell I like to, it makes PCGen a better product!

I mean, really? What would you rather do, Have a civilized discussion or name call? If the former, by all means, let's do so, if the latter, I think Morrus might take exception to that.

 

[Mynex]

Regarding using my stuff, they did finally have the courtesy to ask if they could use it, but not until I bitched about it. Now, since they asked, of course I gave them permission. I mean, just because I don't use it doesn't mean that I don't think other people should be able to.

As for the programming stuff, I guess I'm just spoiled on something that runs well. I mean, heck, I'm a Computer Scientist and a SysAdmin, so I think I'm plenty qualified enough to grip. And yes, I know Java is the biggest problem with the speed and memory issues, not their coding...but that doesn't mean the program doesn't still run like ass.

I'm not telling other people not to use it, it just had one too many strikes against it in my book.

1) Who did you complain to? I don't recall you contacting anyone about it. Doesn't mean you didn't, but I've been involved with PCGen since before any of that was added.

2) Really, a computer scientist AND a SysAdmin. Hrmm... Do you code Java as well? If so, then by all means come join our volunteer group of Code Monkeys. If you don't then you DON'T have room to talk about the coding work that is done on PCGen.

3) Well nothing that can be done about that. you've made up your mind that PCGen is 'Crap' and 'Runs like ass', so no doubt you'll never try it again, and no doubt you'll never see the vast improvements that have been made.

 

[Mynex]

WOTC not only knows about it, but apparently PC Gen is being endorsed by Gen Con.

Personally, I don't get it, either. It should be completely illegal. I mean, technically, any character generator for a RPG that isn't authorized is illegal, since it's a work that is derivative of their copyright. Most companies don't care, or give permission, but some do (like Palladium, for instance).

And it sucks for those of us who write programs that try to follow the OGL.

Uhrm.. Please explain to me how PCGen 'sucks for those of you (us original) who write programs that try to follow the OGL'??

I'm not seeing how PCGen prevents or interferes with you writing your own software.

OH, you mean it sucks for those that are writing software and charging for it. Got it now.

 

[Mynex]

Look, if you want to keep PCGen safe from possible violation of copyright and trademark, remove anything that is copyrighted and/or trademarked, such as Star Wars.

Do not use anything without their permission.

I'd rather you develop a basic electronic aids where I can input and/or alter information. If I want to input Star Wars then I'll do it manually for personal use.

Oh, and one more thing: stop advertising on the Wizards' e-Tools board stating PCGen is better than what e-Tools is coming out. It's annoying. It's also spamming.

Ranger,

You know why the supporters of PCGen started doing that? (and no, I don't condone it, it irritates to many people).

Simple - The Dealy of M/E-tools, the stripped down functionality, and the _biggest_ reason of all... Slamming of PCGen on the wizards boards... which basically boils down to lack of courtesy.

And no it's not spamming. Spamming would be if all 2000+ members of our yahoo group came over to the Wizards boards and all posted the same message.

It's annoying, kinda like the Anti-PCGen messages on Wizards and here (Which fortunately are not that many, Thank you Morrus and Co!).

It's also Rude, which is why I don't agree with doing it. I do _try_ to stay away from rude replies, and usually I manage to, but sometimes I get sarcastic as hell.

Ranger, just to be clear, I'm not 'flaming you' or 'being rude', I actually like you from the posts at Wizards and here I've seen. Just trying to address your points is all.

 

[Mynex]

Cool, someone is using my Team Fighting Feat.

A Couple of things about PCGen.
1) Its slow on startup, not because of Java but because (I Believe) they load all the material into memory. Some things are quite speedy. For instance, if you change an attribute the program will very quickly adjust the feats that you now qualify for.

2) I know for a fact that they do not contact all the copyright holders before putting stuff into the program. They have not contacted me for my feats in the NBoF.

3) They have gotten permission from WOTC to use splatbook material.

4) They don't use the d20 logo or the OGC so they are not in violation with those licenses.

*:> Scott

Leopold answered 2-4, so that leaves 1.

Yes, PCGen makes a ton of stuff at startup for quick reference after the initial get go. This has been worked on and improved, and is continuing to do so.

There are still some speed issues, and we actually have a couple of code monkeys that LIKE optimizing code (Shudder all you other code monkeys, I understand that they are freaks because of that. )... There's only so far that they can go in the optimizing however... Java is the issue here... and 1.3.1 is not a friendly sort... and we still compile the code in that to keep support for the mac people...

Some of us are using JDK1.4 to compile and test things, and it's a LOT faster... apparantly SUN did a ton of optimizations of their own in the fundamental level of Java... so as soon as Apple gets up to date using 1.4, then we'll begin compiling with that.. that will show marked improvment, trust me!