How Is There Still PCGen?

[CRGreathouse]

WOTC not only knows about it, but apparently PC Gen is being endorsed by Gen Con.

Sure, PC Gen is GenCon-endorsed, but GenCon isn't run by WotC.

Personally, I don't get it, either. It should be completely illegal. I mean, technically, any character generator for a RPG that isn't authorized is illegal, since it's a work that is derivative of their copyright. Most companies don't care, or give permission, but some do (like Palladium, for instance).

This is true, but there are many ways of getting it authorized - special permission and the OGL come to mind.

And it sucks for those of us who write programs that try to follow the OGL.

Why? It doesn't seem that hard. Either draw from an external, human-readable database or provide source code.

 

[Jeremy]

I'd just like to jump in here and say how truly wonderful PC Gen is.

I use it at home and at work and it has gotten much faster, much more stable, and remains very comprehensive.

I still have to reference my books to find out what feats do, class abilities do, spells do, etc, but if I've already got it in my head, I can whip up a PC or an army of NPC's in little under 10 minutes complete with a spell list from Book of Eldritch Magic I & II, Relics & Rituals, Tome & Blood, and Magic of Faerun along with magical items from all of the above, Masters of the Wild, and the Psionics Handbook with If Thoughts Could Kill complete with prices and the adjustments made to the character sheet.

Heck, I'd use the app just for the ability to put characters into html format for e-mailing or web posting. How many good examples of filled out character sheets have you seen on the web lately?

I just finished putting together an ogre/goblin/hogoblin fighting squad with the phalanx fighting feat from Lords of Darkness, Team Fighting from the Fantasy Community Council's latest revision Netbook of Feats, and Spear and Shield fighting from the same. Then I exported it to a party format html and on one page got all the combat info I need for them all. Now all I have to do is throw the chits on the table and go.

The fact that I could throw deepwood sniper levels on the hobgoblin archers inside the shield wall is just gravy.

I've fleshed out an entire order of Knights Hospitaler including knights apostate, chaplain, errant, and a few brigadiers and lance corporals. Ask my DM how handy that came in when 17 of them came over a rise as mounted cavalry to aid us in taking a fortified encampment. Instead of making up numbers they were all right there with sources and everything.

Extremely useful software, and if my 45 lb backpack says anything about it, it says that it isn't costing WotC or anyone else a dime. It's just helping me use my books more efficiently.

Go PC GEN!

 

[Ranger REG]

Look, if you want to keep PCGen safe from possible violation of copyright and trademark, remove anything that is copyrighted and/or trademarked, such as Star Wars.

Do not use anything without their permission.

I'd rather you develop a basic electronic aids where I can input and/or alter information. If I want to input Star Wars then I'll do it manually for personal use.

Oh, and one more thing: stop advertising on the Wizards' e-Tools board stating PCGen is better than what e-Tools is coming out. It's annoying. It's also spamming.

 

[Grraf]

I realize that people love to bag things for fun and that this wasn't started as much of a serious discussion as a chance to complain.

Having said that:
1. I use PcGen constantly in a weekly game. It saves hours.
I don't think I could run a game every week without it.

2. The interface doesn't always work perfectly, but its still a hell of a lot of faster than computing by hand all the skills and feats of a half-gynosphinx, rogue, assasin, loremaster.

3. Its run by a bunch of doggedly obessive fanboys (its really a complement). A month ago when I started using it there was a limited amount of Scarred Lands stuff (OK there was a lot of spells but not all of the supplimentary material). The interface was a bit tricky to figure out.
Now its basically all in there. They're constantly improving the program. Even the jump between 262 and 273(271?) was huge. The new e-tools program (now that its been gutted by WotC and hasbro with no mapping, limited material, etc etc) will never have the functions the pcgen already has.

4. You can pick which supplements you feel like using. make your own stuff, post questions and get responces same day. Its nicely customizable and totally free.

IT'S NOT ILLEGAL (if you've been following the e-tools thing its pretty clear. They'll be doing the same thing. Fan created not for profit libraries are pretty clearly fair use)
You need the books to use it anyway (trust me). So unlike e-tools it encourages purchasing of products.

JAVA is good
I guess I understand the "insta-click" mentality. I have to admit that I run pcGen on a computer fomr a few years ago and it doesn't exactly zip around. Using it is still about 5-10 times faster than doing things out by hand (and the chance of computational error or forgetting about that stat increase a character got because I bumped them up a level is nil).

You may not like pcGen, but its a gaming revolution in action. Warts and all.

 

[smetzger]

Team Fighting

Cool, someone is using my Team Fighting Feat.

A Couple of things about PCGen.
1) Its slow on startup, not because of Java but because (I Believe) they load all the material into memory. Some things are quite speedy. For instance, if you change an attribute the program will very quickly adjust the feats that you now qualify for.

2) I know for a fact that they do not contact all the copyright holders before putting stuff into the program. They have not contacted me for my feats in the NBoF.

3) They have gotten permission from WOTC to use splatbook material.

4) They don't use the d20 logo or the OGC so they are not in violation with those licenses.

*:> Scott

 

[kingpaul]

2) I know for a fact that they do not contact all the copyright holders before putting stuff into the program. They have not contacted me for my feats in the NBoF.

Well, they did post, a while back, on the main FaNCC Yahoo! Group that they wanted to use the stuff...and no one objected.

3) They have gotten permission from WOTC to use splatbook material.

They did?!? Wow!

 

[Ranger REG]

4. You can pick which supplements you feel like using. make your own stuff, post questions and get responces same day. Its nicely customizable and totally free.

IT'S NOT ILLEGAL (if you've been following the e-tools thing its pretty clear. They'll be doing the same thing. Fan created not for profit libraries are pretty clearly fair use)
You need the books to use it anyway (trust me). So unlike e-tools it encourages purchasing of products.

Well, everyone wants the customization feature, but that is for personal use. The makers of PCGen shouldn't include data from Star Wars into the program and then distribute it without Wizards' permission. That is something the user must do. After all, you don't see the Document file of D&D Player's Handbook included with MSWord, do you?

If you want, get the other d20 publisher's permission to input data from their work, but leave others out like Wizards' copyrighted material unless they did give you the green light (preferably memorialized in writing).

I'm not ragging down on PCGen and its developers. I'm just trying to keep you guys safe. If you want, consult with a lawyer.

 

[Leopold]

Look, if you want to keep PCGen safe from possible violation of copyright and trademark, remove anything that is copyrighted and/or trademarked, such as Star Wars.

in the production release there is no star wars, FR, or Greyhawk for this reason.

I'd rather you develop a basic electronic aids where I can input and/or alter information. If I want to input Star Wars then I'll do it manually for personal use.

gravy for you but what about the hundreds else that want it for free use?

Oh, and one more thing: stop advertising on the Wizards' e-Tools board stating PCGen is better than what e-Tools is coming out. It's annoying. It's also spamming.

i can assure you that any member I catch doing this will be told to stop. It is not needed, not recommended, and does not help things. It's like going to an NAACP meeting wearing white sheets with eye holes cut out. It does not fly and all it does is cause trouble. We respect WOTC for everything they do and the products they put out. We enjoy having people post how they like the application and what they can do with it. But please do not post something along the lines of "PCGen roX0r and E-tools=suX0r!" That doesn't bode well with WOTC nor the people trying to keep it free and open as much as possible.

 

[Ranger REG]

gravy for you but what about the hundreds else that want it for free use?

They should be glad to have this program of yours to input new d20 data on their own. But the program should not include data from copyrighted material of which you did not secure the publisher's permission.

Like I said, if you have Wizards' permission to use Star Wars information and include it in the freeware PCGen as a bonus to distribute, then that is great. I won't bother you. But if you don't, then by law you are in violation.

You can try and secure other third-party d20 publisher's permission, such AEG's Spycraft and use that as a selling point. After all, you did advertise that this is a generic d20 electronic aid, am I correct?

 

[Leopold]

that you now qualify for.

2) I know for a fact that they do not contact all the copyright holders before putting stuff into the program. They have not contacted me for my feats in the NBoF.

*:> Scott

i'll answer this one as I did this. I contacted the main guy sigfried for the Netbook of Feats and got his approval. I had him contact the other members of the council and they gave the ok. I did this for all the NetBooks: Classes, Races, Treasures, etc.

Am i violating any of the authors copyrighted work? No. The beauty of the netbooks is that i don't have to contact every author just the main council members and they pass on their approval.

So far every author that did a feat for the Netbook has their name appear in the SOURCE tag for reference. Therefore, every time someone uses the feats they know who the author is and where it comes from. We do this with every SOURCE we use and it's the tag that is standard for EVERY single line of code that goes in there. We make sure the right people get the right credit for the work and that nothing is missed.

Also since it's OGC, technically I don't even have to do this but we do it for protocol and in good faith gesture. If you have a problem with us using your feats I would suggest you contact Sigfried and the members of the NBoF council and then contact us and we will remove it from our application.