How Is There Still PCGen?

[Uller]

Well...if WotC/Hasbro believes it infringes on intellectual material, I think they _must_ close PCGen. Why? Because if you choose to not to protect intellectual material, it is my understanding that you can't later choose to do so. If they allow PCGen to "steal" material, then later try to prevent someone else from usinging it, they won't be able to. I'm no copy right lawyer, though...

Anyway...I'm guessing that they aren't actually stealing material. They either have permission or the fact that they don't give any real information allows them to get by. For instance, I just created a Star Wars character with PCGen...I never bought the book. But there is no way my group and I could actually USE the character without having access to the book. The GM has the book and when I showed up to the game, I had to learn what all the skills and feats I picked actually meant...

 

[RodneyThompson]

Regarding using my stuff, they did finally have the courtesy to ask if they could use it, but not until I bitched about it. Now, since they asked, of course I gave them permission. I mean, just because I don't use it doesn't mean that I don't think other people should be able to.

As for the programming stuff, I guess I'm just spoiled on something that runs well. I mean, heck, I'm a Computer Scientist and a SysAdmin, so I think I'm plenty qualified enough to grip. And yes, I know Java is the biggest problem with the speed and memory issues, not their coding...but that doesn't mean the program doesn't still run like ass.

I'm not telling other people not to use it, it just had one too many strikes against it in my book.

 

[Henry]

Moridin:

First of all, I have great respect for you, and the hard work you put into your site. This post is not to slam you; rather, it is to clear up some of the misconceptions about PCGEN.

First of all, for matcolville and others who raised this, the program is, and always will be, FREE. No charging money for it has been the decision of the creator from the beginning. Not that this would ameliorate any claims of copyright ingringement, but there is no charge for the program, even now that they have reached a "development" release. (version 3.0.0, for those who wonder.) This just means that version 3.0 will be available as a stable release. The beta's will continue.

Second, the LST Files (The files containing data from different supplements and releases) is ENTIRELY fan created. The programmers have nothing to do with the maintenance and creation of these files, and the ".lst monkeys" are the ones who decide which projects to tackle. If there has ever been a contention with certain included content, the policy has always been to remove it if asked - even as you said, in your case.

Third, the program is under constant improvement. The program sees one release every week to two weeks, to give you an idea of just how much development is being done.

Fourth, all volunteers working on it are just that - volunteers. THey are not paid for thier efforts. If anyone suggests a feature or a product .LST , they are invited to jump in and assist, if they wish. Otherwise, it goes into the long list of features and improvements to add, and work goes on.

Fifth, the PCGen development team have publically stated on their web site that they are NOT OGL-compliant, nor have they claimed to be. This actually served to head off a number of legal issue regarding coding.

Sixth, if any publisher, WotC or otherwise, wishes a LST file of their product removed, then they will do so. As an aside a long laundry list of official d20 publishers have welcomed PCGen inclusion with open arms. I recall a rumor that one d20 publisher actually provides LST files of their expansions soon after release!

Seventh and final point, Anyone who misses out on the development of PCGen is missing a fantastic thing - a software app that can generate fuly detailed characters for almost any d20 setting. I use it for most of my games that we play, and am very satisfied with the product, occasional bug or not. In fact, one of our group members recently came up with a d20 star trek variant game. I already have 80% of his rules input into PCGen - did it in about 3 hours time, too.

 

[machine]

If I remember correctly, PCGen doesn't have information on classes, feats, spells, etc. that are not in the SRD.

This issue, for me, is why I don't like it. The java-base and the clunky interface doesn't kill it for me, the lack of info does.

 

[kingpaul]

If I remember correctly, PCGen doesn't have information on classes, feats, spells, etc. that are not in the SRD.

This issue, for me, is why I don't like it. The java-base and the clunky interface doesn't kill it for me, the lack of info does.

The reason for that, IIRC, is to not try and take away a company's revenue stream. If PCGen, a free product, contained all of the info you would like from products you'd have to pay for otherwise, why would you pay? Further, and IANAL, if this were the case, I'd be fairly certain all of the companies would be suing the creators for lost profit.

 

[LightPhoenix]

If I remember correctly, PCGen doesn't have information on classes, feats, spells, etc. that are not in the SRD.

This issue, for me, is why I don't like it. The java-base and the clunky interface doesn't kill it for me, the lack of info does.

If you want info, buy the book. The program isn't a substitute for the PHB, DMG, et alia, it's a supplement.

 

[Leopold]

Howdy from the PCGen team here!

.

First of all, for matcolville and others who raised this, the program is, and always will be, FREE. No charging money for it has been the decision of the creator from the beginning. Not that this would ameliorate any claims of copyright ingringement, but there is no charge for the program, even now that they have reached a "development" release. (version 3.0.0, for those who wonder.) This just means that version 3.0 will be available as a stable release. The beta's will continue.

Yes it will always and evermore be free. The 'donation' is simply for the founder and creator Bryan McRoberts to take some time off from coding and take his wife out for dinner, movies, etc. for a change instead of coding. Keeping the woman happy is key to keeping the code flowing!

As for copyright information: all information in PCGen MUST and I mean MUST have permission in a written text file, email, etc. to state that we have permission to code in. We reiceved permission from Ryan many moons ago as well as several publishers such as THG Hal from Mystic Eye Games, JTyranny from Tyranny games, and Matt Sprague from Mongoose for example, even Morrus has given us written permission for Nat20!

No code goes into production if the publisher says 'no' PERIOD.

Second, the LST Files (The files containing data from different supplements and releases) is ENTIRELY fan created. The programmers have nothing to do with the maintenance and creation of these files, and the ".lst monkeys" are the ones who decide which projects to tackle. If there has ever been a contention with certain included content, the policy has always been to remove it if asked - even as you said, in your case.

not true. LST monkeys work on the data files, code monkeys work on the code side. There is a select group which contacts the publisher and delegates material down to the people who can work on each area of the data files. We have broke it down into teams: some work on races, some on equipment, some on classes, etc. This way all the work gets done faster and more efficently as each of us is specialized in one area.

Third, the program is under constant improvement. The program sees one release every week to two weeks, to give you an idea of just how much development is being done.

every week a new version. It has changed heavily since the first of the year with more options, more goodies, more tools, cleaner interface. This week a STABLE release will be out for full production mode.

Fourth, all volunteers working on it are just that - volunteers. THey are not paid for thier efforts. If anyone suggests a feature or a product .LST , they are invited to jump in and assist, if they wish. Otherwise, it goes into the long list of features and improvements to add, and work goes on.

absolutely correct! Core books if broken get fixed first as well as cleanup of files, Bugs next, and then FREQS (feature requests). None of us are paid, noone gets a check and 99% of us have fulltime jobs and families as well. It's a labor of love as the big boss puts it.

Fifth, the PCGen development team have publically stated on their web site that they are NOT OGL-compliant, nor have they claimed to be. This actually served to head off a number of legal issue regarding coding.

It's LPGL i believe is the version of licensing we are using.

Sixth, if any publisher, WotC or otherwise, wishes a LST file of their product removed, then they will do so. As an aside a long laundry list of official d20 publishers have welcomed PCGen inclusion with open arms. I recall a rumor that one d20 publisher actually provides LST files of their expansions soon after release!

this is true. ANY company who wishes us not to use their material all they have to do is ask and we will remove their material and explain that the publisher requested it. We value and protect every companies Intellectual property and if for some reason it interferes with said publisher and they wish it gone we will comply. So far we present the material to the publisher to have them look it over and they see that nothing that has conflicited with their IP that they can't live with.

The rumor is true, just waiting for the book to come out so we can say who it is!

Seventh and final point, Anyone who misses out on the development of PCGen is missing a fantastic thing - a software app that can generate fuly detailed characters for almost any d20 setting. I use it for most of my games that we play, and am very satisfied with the product, occasional bug or not. In fact, one of our group members recently came up with a d20 star trek variant game. I already have 80% of his rules input into PCGen - did it in about 3 hours time, too.

It truly is a flexible, mutliplatformed application, that can save hours of writing and typing by just using a simple well tuned GUI. We have fleshed it out, written up thurough docs to walk the user through creating a PC and the .lst files. We are planning on supporting future works for publishers and showing that we are a valuable tool not only for the gamers but for the companies we support as well.

Feel free to contact myself, or anyone of the people on the PCGen team here at our yahoogroup if we can aid or assist anyone further be it player or DM, writer or Publisher:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pcgen/



Leopold
Doc Silverback

 

[Ranger REG]

You know, I've seen MORE closed rule materials on Wizards' very own message boards than on PC Gen.

We believe if falls under Fair Use; a discussion of the rules is considered a review or educational purpose. Of course we try not to quote from the copyrighted work verbatim, unless to show citation.

 

[Draconis Imperium]

i have been a user of PcGen since its beginning and even helped on a few .lst files. For any who would like to gripe about clunky features
I suggest you use your Master tools! oh wait... sorry.
Why don't you use your e-tools for your new supplement. oh wait...sorry.
You see by a lot of hard work of a lot a volunteers you have a program though not perfect, to use, to help and improve your d20 and D&D gaming. It it adds all new modules and supplements as soon as permission is granted.

I get so tired of hearing people complain about it. If you don't like it don't use it. Just stop whining about it.

 

[trancejeremy]

WOTC not only knows about it, but apparently PC Gen is being endorsed by Gen Con.

Personally, I don't get it, either. It should be completely illegal. I mean, technically, any character generator for a RPG that isn't authorized is illegal, since it's a work that is derivative of their copyright. Most companies don't care, or give permission, but some do (like Palladium, for instance).

And it sucks for those of us who write programs that try to follow the OGL.