How Is There Still PCGen?

[Lily Inverse]

Actually people, there is one thing to keep in mind. WotC made an extremely risky move by writing the OGL in the first place, as it is based on the legally untested GNU licenses for open-source software. There's no guarantee that the OGL can hold up in court as-is. There is a chance, however slight, that the first time this license comes under legal attack the entire system of trusting the other guy to not break you will collapse.

But that means that OGL is based entirely on trust. Unfortunately, the fact is is that OGL DOES self-replicate. The implication is that if you use OGC the OGL is attached to it. Thus, PCGen could actually constitute a huge threat to the D20 system as it exists today. But whether that risk is taken is entirely dependent on WotC. My opinion is they don't DARE try to shut the operation down, for fear that the empire they're building will come crashing down about their ears.

I'm no lawyer, though.

 

[Twin Rose]

Actually people, there is one thing to keep in mind. WotC made an extremely risky move by writing the OGL in the first place, as it is based on the legally untested GNU licenses for open-source software. There's no guarantee that the OGL can hold up in court as-is. There is a chance, however slight, that the first time this license comes under legal attack the entire system of trusting the other guy to not break you will collapse.

You are correct. Misuse can in fact lead to everyone losing the benefits of the d20 and open game licenses. This would be very grave for a lot of people, people I believe do a lot to contribute to gaming as a whole.

But that means that OGL is based entirely on trust. Unfortunately, the fact is is that OGL DOES self-replicate. The implication is that if you use OGC the OGL is attached to it. Thus, PCGen could actually constitute a huge threat to the D20 system as it exists today. But whether that risk is taken is entirely dependent on WotC. My opinion is they don't DARE try to shut the operation down, for fear that the empire they're building will come crashing down about their ears.

If they don't, they forfeit their ownership of their copyrights. According to the law, you MUST defend your copyright if you are aware of it. If the GPL made a claim to the information contained in PCGen, that they own it now since it's derivitive, noone would be allowed to sell anything containing that material, iirc.

 

[Ranger REG]

Re: And the question is

Who gives a crap?

We do. We "whiners" give a crap because we want PCGen to succeed for a very long time. That's why we want the developers to cover their bases.

Now if you guys don't want us to care for PCGen, then please say so.

 

[merton_monk]

Copyrights

Here is a website that I continually check back on whenever I need to refresh myself on copyrights.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

You do not need to vigorously defend copyrights - you need to vigorously defend trademarks. We defend trademarks in PCGen by clearly indicating the owner of the trademarks and copyrights.

I appreciate, and I think everyone should, the discussion about legalities. As dry as it is and as (occasionally) emotional it is, it is necessary as a way to (as Ranger put it) make sure out bases are covered.

Few things about how all these licenses affect software are very clear - it's murky at best. That combined with the fact that a company can still win a meritless or very weak suit based upon the ability to afford lawyers puts another dimension on this whole issue. Still, we are trying to be conscientious and legal - not only to protect ourselves, but to make sure we don't accidentally contribute to the detriment of any works we reference. We enjoy a lot of support from publishers because of this, and I have every intention of maintaining those good relations - which would be impossible to do if any of them viewed us as a threat to their work in any kind of way.

Bryan McRoberts

 

[Lily Inverse]

If the GPL made a claim to the information contained in PCGen, that they own it now since it's derivitive, noone would be allowed to sell anything containing that material, iirc.[/quiote]

Actually, this list isn't anywhere near as big as you might think. No PI is contained within PCGen at all, it's all in the .lst files, which, IIRC, aren't covered by the GPL because they are, in essence, just separate data files.

Also, the key point about OGL that I made is that, while you can sell everything, you are supposed to make any product that contains OGC completely OGL compliant. If you don't, you are in violation of the license and completely open to legal prosecution under it unless you make some other arrangement, and possibly not even then. I would need to re-check the wording, but I believe that it's such that, once you've applied the OGL to a specific product, you can't use any other license with those contents anymore. I may be wrong in that such only applies to other printed media, though.

 

[Christian]

Well, WRT to the core D&D rules-the authors of the .lst files could say that they're using the copyrighted material in the PH (all of the PH is copyrighted, including the portions that were later released as OGC) with the permission of the copyright holder.

Ponder that until your brain hurts. Or not.

 

[EricLeaf]

Re: Let me step in here please

Those are the general statements, now let me hit the specific points others raised.
1) Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Call of Cthulhu, Forgotten Realms, etc... Specific game worlds/settings... something to think about here.
I just used those copyrighted names in a public forum, hence those names are being distributed in an electronic format across

If I follow your argument, you are saying that because you have not been sued for posting those names, therefore it is ok to use them. That is false.

2) Pcgen is not 'Stealing' anything from anybody. Period.

To be honest I have no problems with the movement and have greatly benefitted personally from open source in general and many of the larger products such as Linux and gcc, bread and butter.

However, two key ideas are not divorced from a subject "merely" because you aren't getting cash for the work. That is value trade, *and* stealing. My own interpretation of our copyright laws don't imply bank account increase only to mean improper use of others IP, in other words violation.


Also, with service or trade marks its even more dangerous for you. In addition, while you seem to be saying something different from another on the team, its not the owners job to notify *you* to not violate their copyright. And even having that view will be viewed harshly in court I wold wager. In other words, thats a foolish stand to make, unless you have legal permission your only option would be to cease and desist when you recieved such notice since, "oh they didn't tell me" won't take you very far.

3) PCGen is NOT in direct competition with E-Tools, regardless of what anybody says. Our goal is NOT to sink E-Tools, or cause it to lose sales. As noted elsewhere in this thread, it is an all

Lack of malice or foresight doesn't remove you from responsibility.

4) Wizards has said in the past that any software character creation tool must have the mechanics in a 'Human Readable Format'.

I think you are mixing ideas in your head, OGL is pretty clear, and not portable with GPL or LGPL. D20 license would benefit you in terms of branding, but also places on you greater limits. Your standpoint is that you don't follow either license so you are not limited by them, but in reality by not following either license you are merely violating copyright. Wether devoted wotc writer's children are going unfed is a totally different question, but thats only a morality concern, legally it doesn't matter.

5) Java and the GUI. If you haven't used PCGen in the last month, then you have NO room to complain about the UI, it's drastically different and a hell of a lot faster than ever, and it's getting faster every release. Divorce Java from PCGen, if you don't understand the differences,

Thats not entirely valid, the pcgen team *choose* to use Java. So regrettably they are connected. Until someone with sense ports it to C or C++.

Why are people so anti-PCGen?
So much discussion over PCGen, what about Twin rose and Tablesmith and the like, where's the 'hot debate' over them, some of them charge.

I can think of a few reasons, the main one being that the people that are Pro-pcgen, much like the classic Mac or Linux zealot, are abrasive to many people. Not so much because of the actual ideals, but because of the simple minded and polar values that they represent.

I'm sure you can find better thought out and more exhaustive discussion on the whole free software realm, but just becuase its free does not mean its better for me and everyone else. Many people have a natural distrust of "free", which is sensible in my mind. Also, and this is a lesson I learned when I did run Linux which was years ago at this point (I'm old sk00l) its not free in the thing I value most in life, my time. I can buy a fullly loaded Dell with Xp and be up and running in the time it takes me to plug it in, it has a price tag, but that more than makes up for the time cost it would take to install Linux. And while I know its easier nowadays, it took me weeks with no reference to get it running on a notebook in 94'. I was a student then so my time was worthless for the most part so it was a fair trade. Now however, I wouldn't think of installing Linux unless maybe I was setting up a server machine.

I'm sure you understand that, and eTools will be the same way. For the vast majority of people it will be the better choice. That should be obvious, and your statements make it seem like you understand that. Now, you have people that sell pcgen in a way to act like that doesn't exist, and that is what I am talking about here. That is annoying because its a polar view that doesn't look at all the issues involved, so of course will bother people. Bother them so much they reply on these or other boards to debunk that belief. And since it is an argument or battle, they have to respond with the same level of intensity to compete.


In more general terms deToqueville wrote on this while describing America's two party system sometime last century. Its either very basic logic or "natural balance" if you stand on the far edge, someone will stand on the opposite edge to balance you out.

I was on Beta for M/E-tools, I made no bones about my work on PCGen, It was known when I was selected, it was known while I was in the beta, and every one of my messages had my sig line in there of 'PCGen Doc & lst file Silverback' You think THAT was glossed over?

It may have been overlooked initially. I know for a fact it wasn't just glossed over, and you came out with a different political agenda when it came out so to ease peoples concerns. I've since read posts by you on other forums that now leads me to believe that was only lip service.

And finally, please, PLEASE, let's refrain the slanderous attacks on PCGen. If people want to debate the pro/cons, I'm more than happy to, hell I like to, it makes PCGen a better product!

I believe this post to be largely devoid of slanderous attacks and name calling. I think that will make this post seem odd and out of place so am compelled to say pCgEN s0xx0rs, et00ls roxxors!

 

[Mynex]

Re: Re: Let me step in here please

It may have been overlooked initially. I know for a fact it wasn't just glossed over, and you came out with a different political agenda when it came out so to ease peoples concerns. I've since read posts by you on other forums that now leads me to believe that was only lip service.

You and I have both stated we're not lawyers, so I'm not going to continue a fruitless debate on the points we've both addressed.

You've made other points over the rabidness of PCGen users, and yes, there are many... just as many E-Tools rabid folk as well. That's known territory, so we'll skip that as well...

This last bit, the part I quoted, is what I wanted to clarify from you.

Are you saying that my position that PCGen on/vs E-Tools has changed? That I was paying lip service to the fact they can co-exist?

If that's the case, I strongly recommend you point to specific posts I've made where I've ever said anything different, or even remotely close to that.

I have NEVER 'dissed' M/E-Tools. EVER. I have slammed Hasbro/WotC/TSR for their mangling of how it was handled, I have complained on the Wizards boards about the lack of features that _I_ want, that were _PROMISED_ by the original M-Tools... but I never slammed the incarnation of E-Tools that is out, I have never said it sucks or any such other thing remotely close to it.

I _HAVE_ made comments about the the DB, but those are my quirks about Access and again, how Hasbro/WotC/TSR mangled the management of this project.

My opinions about E-Tools are my own, and I'll keep them that way for 3 reasons;

1) Until E-Tools actually hits the streets (Aug 8th I believe?) I am still bound by the NDA I signed to BE a beta tester for it.

2) Anything I say, Positive or negative, will be construed and taken as biased because of my involvement with PCGen *shrug* That's the way people are, that's fine.

3) it is _ONLY_ an opinion.

In short, I don't like being called a liar. And that's exactly how your comment about 'paying lip service' came across to me.

I would recommend you re-read how that statement looks and think about how it comes across though, I can't change the fact of how it looks to me as I read it, that's _my_ perception of the words.

And if I am mistaken and that was not your intent/meaning, then my apologies.

 

[mattcolville]

Re: Re: How Is There Still PCGen?

So Matt when are you going to give permission for PCGen to include your works...hmm?

I'm a writer/designer. . .not a publisher. My permission would be meaningless, I don't hold the copyrights on anything my name's been on.

Furthermore, with a lot of the stuff I've worked on, the licensor *can't* give permission. WotC can't grant you the rights to use the term 'wookie' because they don't hold the rights to the term 'wookie.'

 

[mattcolville]

I realize that people love to bag things for fun and that this wasn't started as much of a serious discussion as a chance to complain.

You don't realize any such thing. I started this thread and my post didn't have an ounce of complaint in it. I simply didn't understand how they could include data from IPs neither they nor WotC have permission to allow them to use.

Later, I believe I complained at how fantastically, colossaly slow PCGen is on my machine, which eats up NWN and WarIII and spits them out. How a program like PCGen can grind my computer to a halt is still something that boggles my mind and is the primary reason I'm not using it, and will be trying ETools instead. Two of the guys in my gaming group are JAVA heads, one's a computer science professor at a state college, one's a design lead for Symantec. Both said "there's no excuse for this." You can take that as a flame, or as a serious criticism from professionals who wanted to see the program work.