How many attacks?

[LokiDR]

Concept: monk with multidex, multiweapon, point blank, and rapid shot, wielding a kama and a throwing/returning kama and performing a flurry of blows.

Do I get all (unarmed) BAB iterative attacks, + kama + "offhand" monk attack + flurry + thrown kama? What are the penalties on that? What attacks do I get?

By "offhand" I refering to the passage in the PH that states monks can always use elbow, knee, foot, ect to strike an opponent.

Note: the sage has ruled that TWF style and rapid shot can be used together.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

No. A monk's multiple unarmed attacks and flurry of blows cannot be combined with "offhand" attacks.

One of the weaknesses of the 3e rules, in my opinion. It keeps causing confusion. Better that they had made the monk use a form of two-weapon fighting, analogous to (but not necessarily the same as) what rangers do.

 

[LokiDR]

Ok, does the combination work without the flurry?

 

[jlhorner1974]

Here's the relevant text fro the SRD:

A monk fighting with a one-handed weapon can make an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, but she suffers the standard penalties for two-weapon fighting. Likewise, a monk with a weapon (other than a special monk weapon) in her off hand gets an extra attack with that weapon but suffers the usual penalties for two-weapon fighting and can't strike with a flurry of blows.

Flurry of Blows: The monk may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack, but this attack and each other attack made that round suffer a –2 penalty apiece. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. The monk must use the full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. A monk may also use the flurry of blows if armed with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, or siangham). If armed with one such weapon, the monk makes the extra attack either with that weapon or unarmed. If armed with two such weapons, she uses one for the regular attack (or attacks) and the other for the extra attack. In any case, her damage bonus on the attack with her off hand is not reduced.


The last part of the second paragraph does kind of imply that monks cannot combine two weapons with a flurry and get both an off hand attack and a flurry.

I don't think rapid shot helps here because it takes an entire round for the kama to return when you throw it. If you had several returning kamas and Quick draw, that could be a different story.

Your concept of off-hand is off too. Monks can indeed use various parts of their body when making an *unarmed* attack (they can mix punches, kicks, elbow strikes and so forth) without penalty. But this does not give you an extra attack per round.

If you are wielding weapons, though, this does not apply. A monk wielding two kamas can still use his more favorable unarmed attack bonuses, but he does not get to ignore penalties for two-weapon fighting and ambidexterity when fighting armed.

If you are a 20th level Monk, you normally get 5 attacks per round (using unarmed BAB) So the number of attacks you should get with two kamas in a flurry is:

5 (Monk attack rate) + 1 (flurry)

If you flurry, all your attacks are at -2:
If your BAB is +15, your attacks would be at:

+13/+13/+10/+7/+5/+2

(Your extra flurry attack is at your highest BAB.)

If you have a non-monk weapon in your off hand, you can't flurry, but you can still get an extra attack with the off hand, with the normal two-weapon-fighting penalties. If you have all the feats and the weapon is light, the attack numbers wind up to be the same (-2 for primary hand, -2 for off hand).


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong (like you won't anyway, right?).

Edited: Fixed bad numbers

 

[LokiDR]

They need to add the line "flurry of blows replaces two-weapon fighting for the unarmed monk or monk using one of the special monk weapons."

That aside, I can see where I went wrong with multi-attack and multidex. Since the common monk doesn't have 3+ arms or 3+ "natural attacks" unless I am trying to count ever surface a character can hit with. Since that isn't how natural attacks are figured, I will just have to give up on it

But jlhorner1974 you are wrong on the rapid shot. After I attack with all my iterative attacks and my flurry or TWF, I can throw my kama. Rapid shot only says that you must make a full attack, not the form of that attack. This doesn't make much sense to me, but it is the sage's ruling for TWF, so I would have to believe it would apply to flurry.

Oh well, there goes my grand scheme of a monk with bunches of attacks at really low bonuses.

 

[Antikinesis]

But jlhorner1974 you are wrong on the rapid shot. After I attack with all my iterative attacks and my flurry or TWF, I can throw my kama. Rapid shot only says that you must make a full attack, not the form of that attack. This doesn't make much sense to me, but it is the sage's ruling for TWF, so I would have to believe it would apply to flurry.

If I remember that finding correctly, TWF + RShot doesn't stack in a way to allow two extra attacks. If you have both feats, you can make your full attack progression with your primary hand, and then take one extra attack, either melee or ranged. [Edit] The monk's flurry would spend the allowed extra attack in melee form, which leaves no more available attacks to use Rapid Shot. [/Edit]

-AK

 

[jlhorner1974]

I haven't read the Sage's ruling, so I cannot comment on that.
I'll accept that TWF stacks with Rapid Shot, but I don't think it matters here.

I think what the Player's Handbook is trying to say is that the increased rate of attacks with your Monk unarmed BAB already reflects "attacking with all parts of your body" -- it effectively replaces off hand attacks from wielding multiple weapons.

If you are wielding nothing but monk weapons, it is treated as if you are not fighting with two hands at all -- you cannot make an off hand attack but you do not suffer the normal penalties in regards to two-weapon fighting either.

If you are wielding any weapon that is not a monk weapon, then you have to use your normal BAB and rate of attacks and you are subject to the normal two-weapon-fighting penalties (and you cannot flurry). But you get an off hand attack, and if you are using a thrown weapon, another extra attack with Rapid Shot. But the point is, even non-Monks can do this.

In the example you gave with a kama in each hand, you are not treated as fighting with two hands, so the fact that TWF stacks with Rapid Shot is not important. The question that is important is, does Rapid Shot stack with flurry? I say no.

The way I see Rapid Shot is similar to flurry, in both cases, you are attacking at a faster pace in exchange for less accuracy. Either you are doing it with the flurry (which is only for monk weapons) or with Rapid Shot (ranged weapons only). I don't think it makes a lot of sense to allow both to stack for a ranged monk weapon. Flurry basically already gives you Rapid Shot for free with a thrown monk weapon.

Also, the rules do not state this, but I would not allow any character to use Rapid Shot if the extra attack it grants is the only ranged attack that round. I see Rapid Shot working as you have been shooting all round at an increased pace so you have time to get one extra shot in. I don't see it as "I have been meleeing with a dagger all round and then if I throw it at the end, I can get one extra attack because of rapid shot."

Rapid Shot is still useful for monks using other ranged weapons (bows, crossbows) that they cannot flurry with.

My point regarding Quick Draw and throwing was more that if Rapid Shot does let you get an extra attack on top of the regular attacks and flurry extra attack, the throwing of the kama would have to be the last attack you make, since once you throw the kama, you can't get it back until next round. But, like I said, I don't think Rapid Shot stacks with flurry.

On one point of yours, I completely agree. It would be great if this could be clarified so we know exactly what stacks with what and what exactly can a monk do when wielding two weapons.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Rapid Shot is still useful for monks using other ranged weapons (bows, crossbows*) that they cannot flurry with.

* if it's a repeating crossbow or they have the Rapid Reload feat.

-Hyp.

 

[jlhorner1974]

Hypersmurf adds asterisks to all of my posts to point out the special cases, I think. I think of him as my editor sometimes.

Of course, he's right. I think that one of the splatbooks also has a magical ranged weapon "reloading" ability (+1 equivalent?) that automatically reloads bolts from an extradimensional space to allow for a full attack with a crossbow.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think of him as my editor sometimes.

Does that mean I get a percentage?

-Hyp.