How many attacks?

[jlhorner1974]

Sure, what % of the $0.00 I'm making off this would you like?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure, what % of the $0.00 I'm making off this would you like?

I think 30% is fair.

And time-and-a-half for overtime.

And I expect a few weeks off over Christmas.

Take it or leave it.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

First, I would like to say that I don't believe RS should stack with anything, from a conceptual point of view.

I haven't read the Sage's ruling, so I cannot comment on that.
I'll accept that TWF stacks with Rapid Shot, but I don't think it matters here.

You'll believe me that it stacks, but believe TWF is different than flurry? You just convinced me that flurry replaces TWF for monks. Now you have me confused.

I think what the Player's Handbook is trying to say is that the increased rate of attacks with your Monk unarmed BAB already reflects "attacking with all parts of your body" -- it effectively replaces off hand attacks from wielding multiple weapons.

replacing TWF....

Originally posted by jlhorner1974
If you are wielding nothing but monk weapons, it is treated as if you are not fighting with two hands at all -- you cannot make an off hand attack but you do not suffer the normal penalties in regards to two-weapon fighting either.

This is where you are starting to break the analogy of TWF to flurry. Same penalties (if you have the TWF feats), same concept, but the monk using only one monk weapon can use any body part to attack.

Originally posted by jlhorner1974
If you are wielding any weapon that is not a monk weapon, then you have to use your normal BAB and rate of attacks and you are subject to the normal two-weapon-fighting penalties (and you cannot flurry). But you get an off hand attack, and if you are using a thrown weapon, another extra attack with Rapid Shot. But the point is, even non-Monks can do this.

Could a monk with 2 monk weapons perform TWF? No, they have flurry....

Originally posted by jlhorner1974
In the example you gave with a kama in each hand, you are not treated as fighting with two hands, so the fact that TWF stacks with Rapid Shot is not important. The question that is important is, does Rapid Shot stack with flurry? I say no.

The quote given from the SRD disagrees. If you have two monk weapons, the extra attack from flurry comes from the exta weapon.

Originally posted by jlhorner1974
The way I see Rapid Shot is similar to flurry, in both cases, you are attacking at a faster pace in exchange for less accuracy. Either you are doing it with the flurry (which is only for monk weapons) or with Rapid Shot (ranged weapons only). I don't think it makes a lot of sense to allow both to stack for a ranged monk weapon. Flurry basically already gives you Rapid Shot for free with a thrown monk weapon.

Also, the rules do not state this, but I would not allow any character to use Rapid Shot if the extra attack it grants is the only ranged attack that round. I see Rapid Shot working as you have been shooting all round at an increased pace so you have time to get one extra shot in. I don't see it as "I have been meleeing with a dagger all round and then if I throw it at the end, I can get one extra attack because of rapid shot."

I won't argue that this makes a whole lot of sense. But neither does TWF and rapid shot. If you rule differently than the 'official' call, you are house ruling, which is fine. However, I think the rules do not prevent you from doing flurry+RS, the same way they do not prevent TWF+RS.

Originally posted by jlhorner1974
On one point of yours, I completely agree. It would be great if this could be clarified so we know exactly what stacks with what and what exactly can a monk do when wielding two weapons.

I hate monks. Well, ok, I used to hate monks. As they stand, I think the class has lots of problems. I hope they fix the entire situation of unarmed BAB as well as flurry.

As for flurry+RS, I see only the same restrictions against it as TWF+RS. Because a monk can not flurry with a non-monk weapon, you would have to spend more on a special item or take quick draw. Either way, from a balance perspective, they seem similar.

 

[jontherev]

I don't see any reason in the rules to disallow using RS, TWF, and FoB together. Actually, I don't see any reason to disallow this, because of the HEAVY penalties this concept brings about, even considering Brilliant Energy kamas. And you thought your monk couldn't hit with his Flurry of Misses (TM) before...

 

[jlhorner1974]

I admit I was confused myself by this after LokiDR's last post.
But I was looking through the D&D FAQ for something else and found answers to most of our questions in the Monk section. Here are three of the answers:

"There’s no such thing as a monk making an off-hand
unarmed attack, because monks are already using pretty much
their whole bodies for unarmed combat. For unarmed monks,
the flurry of blows ability replaces off-hand unarmed attacks."

"A monk can freely mix attacks with special monk weapons
into an unarmed attack routine. The monk’s attacks can all be
with the weapon, they can all be unarmed, or the monk can mix
them up."

"A monk wielding a one-handed weapon (other than a special
monk weapon) can use the rules for fighting with two weapons
and can use her unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, with all
the appropriate penalties (see page 39 in the Player’s
Handbook). The unarmed strike is considered a light weapon.
Although the Player’s Handbook mentions using the
unarmed attack only as an off-hand attack, there’s no reason
why a monk couldn’t make her unarmed attack her primary
attack. In this case, the monk still must use her (lower) armed
attack rate."


The Sage has established that RS stacks with TWF, and the ruling above says that TWF replaces FoB, but I don't see anything specifically said about whether RS stacks with flurry. Given the rulings above and the logical elegance, I'm guessing it should.

So dual-wielding with kamas, you could end up with:

Full attack + flurry attack + Rapid Shot attack

at her unarmed BAB with no Two-weapon-fighting or ambidexterity feats needed, since the TWF rules do not apply in this case.

So a 20th level monk would get 7 attacks, all at -4 (-2 for flurry, -2 for RS): or +11/+11/+11/+8/+5/+2/-1

 

[LokiDR]

Oddly, I used the concept for a character and it wasn't all that broken. Then again, it was a very munchkin game.

Is there any ruling on the wild-fighting of the Tribal Protector? It states "like flury" but the class is expected to use weapons, most likely.

 

[jlhorner1974]

Well, Jontherev was right, I think.

You can keep piling on the feats, but the penalties really start to add up. You can even add an 8th attack to the above if you take Lightning Fists as a feat.

So a 20th level monk would get 8 attacks, all at -7 (-5 for LF, -2 for RS): or +8/+8/+8/+8/+5/+2/-1/-4

Probably at this point, you are in such a flurry that you're not even sure what you're aiming at.

 

[LokiDR]

Well, Jontherev was right, I think.

You can keep piling on the feats, but the penalties really start to add up. You can even add an 8th attack to the above if you take Lightning Fists as a feat.

So a 20th level monk would get 8 attacks, all at -7 (-5 for LF, -2 for RS): or +8/+8/+8/+8/+5/+2/-1/-4

Probably at this point, you are in such a flurry that you're not even sure what you're aiming at.

Problem: the sage has ruled that Lightning Fists is a full round attack all to itself, so it doesn't work with iterative attacks, flurry, RS, or TWF.

All these extra attack options makes haste look like a good option