How many gods is too many gods?

[gyor]

Can I add my small and insignificant two cents?

There is nothing wrong with having that many Overdieties. In fact we don't even know if such a concept exists in 5e do we? The only god that has stats is Tiamat, and then we have a campaign that later stats the Demon Lords, who don't look any different than gods (if we use her as the template).

Again, I'll use Marvel (not the movie production) Comics as the analogy. They have all of the mythological gods from every pantheon, in the Upper Planes (called Dimensions). Marvel has being that are even more powerful than gods, or skyfathers like Odin or Zeus, such as Lord Chaos and Master Order, Eternity and The Living Tribunal. Either one of them are capable of destroying the entire Universe, yet they are capable of working individually, without overlap/conflict.

AO is not the only overgod in FR, Fate and the Celestial Emperer (head of the Kara Tur Pantheon, but functions like an Overgod, not greater God) might be Overgods too. There is also whatever being AO was shown answering too.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

There is nothing wrong with having that many Overdieties.

Sure. When I say it's too many, I mean it's too many if the goal involves having the world follow D&D norms and precedents. If that isn't a goal, you could do whatever, even make all deities Overdeities.

Somebody is going to bring up how there isn't any "norm" because D&D worlds vary so wildly, from no deities (Athas) to a lot of deities, including a ridiculous number of greater powers (Faerun), etc. I don't disagree with that. I still maintain that there is consistency in that Overdeities are extremely rare and not even necessary for a world. Most worlds have either 0 or 1 of them, with Krynn possibly having 2.

No D&D world is split up into portfolios watched over by Overdeities. The basic concept of Overdeities is that they are beyond the concept of portfolios and normal deity stuff.

In fact we don't even know if such a concept exists in 5e do we?

I can't find a reference to Overdeities in the DMG or SCAG, so you might very well be right--they may not have even been mentioned in official 5e sources. I do remember Jeremy Crawford mentioning Ao in that recent Sage Advice podcast though. The 5e pattern seems to be that AD&D lore is the standard unless stated otherwise. Which is probably a good idea, seeing that AD&D ran for 23 or so years, and most of its lore was also preserved for the next 7 or so years of 3e.

The only god that has stats is Tiamat, and then we have a campaign that later stats the Demon Lords, who don't look any different than gods (if we use her as the template).

Yeah, it's rather unfortunate. They are also inconsistent about the nature of Demigods. The DMG rejects previous edition usage as the lowest rank of actual deities who can grant spells and such in favor of the literal meaning of a being who has both a mortal and divine parent, but other sources in 5e still refer to demigods in the traditional D&D sense. We have very little reliable info about 5e deities to go on.

Again, I'll use Marvel (not the movie production) Comics as the analogy. They have all of the mythological gods from every pantheon, in the Upper Planes (called Dimensions). Marvel has being that are even more powerful than gods, or skyfathers like Odin or Zeus, such as Lord Chaos and Master Order, Eternity and The Living Tribunal. Either one of them are capable of destroying the entire Universe, yet they are capable of working individually, without overlap/conflict.

That's fine for Marvel, but I'm going with D&D precedent.

AO is not the only overgod in FR, Fate and the Celestial Emperer (head of the Kara Tur Pantheon, but functions like an Overgod, not greater God). There is also whatever being AO was shown answering too.

I disagree with this assessment. Fate isn't necessarily even a deity. The presentation leans more towards it being a force, though the exact nature was (probably intentionally) left vague. I'm not sure if the Celestial Emperor from Kara-Tur's Celestial Bureaucracy is the same as the Jade Emperor from the standard D&D Celestial Bureaucracy, but the latter is not an Overdeity. Just like Zeus, Odin, and all the other heads of pantheons, they are a greater god, generally one amongst many (the Elven pantheon is odd in that only Corellon is a greater deity). Head of Pantheon rarely if ever equals Overdeity. Overdeities are above pantheons. Unlike heads of pantheons, they aren't worshipped by mortals, and their very existence is usually either unknown to mortals (as Ao was until the Time of Troubles) or known to the learned, but not relevant to mortal religion.

As a tangent, it's rather unclear how the Kara-Tur Celestial Bureaucracy is related to the more general one. They overtly share one or two deities, and there are a few more than might be the same deity viewed a bit differently, but then there are others that are just completely different. I tend to view it like the Elven or Dwarven pantheons. There is one Celestial Bureaucracy. There are a core set of deities known pretty much everywhere, and then there are some that are only well known on certain worlds. The Celestial Bureaucracy probably has a lot of deities (Legends & Lore even mentions one or two in passing without giving them any other attention), with only a handful being universal, and the rest being known in a limited number of worlds.

Maybe at some point we'll get a more accurate and consistent explanation of 5e deities, preferably with a listing of divine ranks. In particular, it is unclear what to do with deities (like most of the Krynn ones) that have only ever been presented as Intermediate Deities, now that that rank has been removed (probably for the better).

 

[gyor]

Agreed.

At the very least, if they feel they absolutely must assign alignments and absolutely have to have Evil deities, they would (IMO) be well-served to make sure that those evil deities have at least some very strong admirable traits: rather than the God of Badness, they should go for something more like Discworld's Patrician - yes, he's a tyrant and does some really nasty things, but on the other hand he makes the city work better than anyone else, and has actually brought a measure of order and peace to the place. So, do you oppose him because he's evil, or accept him because the alternative would almost certainly be worse?



Ooh, I really like this. My only objection is that it's a bit too neat, but that could be reasonably easily solved...

Asmodeus is what this made me think of, the Gods of Good can't take him out or cripple him, because it would be a disaster for the planes as sickeningly as his evil is.

There are some other Gods like this, mostly Lawful Evil like Bane, not many Choatic Evil Gods whose death would be a disaster. If the Drow rely on Lolth to make new souls maybe her.

 

[Maxperson]

Sooo, I've been working on my world, and I've been stuck on the gods for a looong while now. I've plundered and pilfered from past editions and other fantasy settings, and now I have (ranked by divinity level)

8 Overdeities- First beings ever created, absolutely untouchable and incredibly powerful (one per base divine domain in PHB)

32 Greater deities- created by the Overdeities, oversee different aspects of their domains (4x OD)

About 20 racial deities, who are basically saints that were helped by the gods at some point and gained divinity status among their people.

Now, all these cover basically any aspect of life possible and give ample choice to any type of player a character may want to make. The problem is, will they be too much to handle?
Obviously only a couple of gods will have actual churches/organisations, the rest will be worshipped mostly on a personal basis, but I'm afraid that their presence won't be felt at all in the world.
But at the same time, if I reduce the gods I have to make the portfolios massively bigger, leading to some people only worshipping one part of what the god oversees, leading me to having to name those parts, leading me back to the beginning basically.

What can I do about this?

I'd say 12-20. I love the Forgotten Realms, but it has waaaaaay too many gods. You don't need 6 gods that are some variation of war, and 5 that are some variation of magic.

 

[gyor]

I'd say 12-20. I love the Forgotten Realms, but it has waaaaaay too many gods. You don't need 6 gods that are some variation of war, and 5 that are some variation of magic.

Heathen. Heretic. I love FRs huge Pantheons, its part of the character of the setting.

It's really funny you think FR only have 6 gods of war and 5 of magic. After MTOFs I think the Seldarine alone has more then that.

Let's see for war Gods in the realms Bast, Ishtar, Ianna, Tempus, Gargos, Red Knight, Gruumush, Corellon Larethian, Clanddin Silverbeard, Anhur, and that is just off the top of my head.

For Gods of magic Mystera, Azuth, Thoth, Savras, Isis, Set, Leira, Malak, Valsheroon, Karus, Corellon Larethion, and I'm not even counting Bardic Magic, or the new magic gods 5e added with MTOFs.

Gods of love, Joy, and lust Zandilar/Sharess/Bast/Feladae, Sune, Hanali Celani, Llirra, Luthic, Baldur (the Norse God had a temple in Desert of Desolation, not many know that), Ishtar, Ianna, Isis, Illanis, forgot the names of the Dwarven and gnome gods of love, I might have missed a few.

I haven't included Zakharan Gods, the Celestial Burcracy, Lords of Creation, or Maztican Gods as I am less familiar with them.

List of Pantheons

Fearunian Pantheon
Seldarine
Mulhorand
Unther
Chultan
Zakharan
Maztican
Dark Seldarine
Mordinshammer
Gnomes Pantheon
Halfling Pantheon
Giant Pantheon
Dragon Pantheon
Gobliniod Pantheon
Orc Pantheon
Scaly Ones Pantheon
Lords of creation


And more. There are unexplored continents on Toril and Abeir and Deities like to immigrate to Toril.

 

[Maxperson]

Heathen. Heretic. I love FRs huge Pantheons, its part of the character of the setting.

It's really funny you think FR only have 6 gods of war and 5 of magic. After MTOFs I think the Seldarine alone has more then that.

Let's see for war Gods in the realms Bast, Ishtar, Ianna, Tempus, Gargos, Red Knight, Gruumush, Corellon Larethian, Clanddin Silverbeard, Anhur, and that is just off the top of my head.

For Gods of magic Mystera, Azuth, Thoth, Savras, Isis, Set, Leira, Malak, Valsheroon, Karus, Corellon Larethion, and I'm not even counting Bardic Magic, or the new magic gods 5e added with MTOFs.

Gods of love, Joy, and lust Zandilar/Sharess/Bast/Feladae, Sune, Hanali Celani, Llirra, Luthic, Baldur (the Norse God had a temple in Desert of Desolation, not many know that), Ishtar, Ianna, Isis, Illanis, forgot the names of the Dwarven and gnome gods of love, I might have missed a few.

I haven't included Zakharan Gods, the Celestial Burcracy, Lords of Creation, or Maztican Gods as I am less familiar with them.

List of Pantheons

Fearunian Pantheon
Seldarine
Mulhorand
Unther
Chultan
Zakharan
Maztican
Dark Seldarine
Mordinshammer
Gnomes Pantheon
Halfling Pantheon
Giant Pantheon
Dragon Pantheon
Gobliniod Pantheon
Orc Pantheon
Scaly Ones Pantheon
Lords of creation


And more. There are unexplored continents on Toril and Abeir and Deities like to immigrate to Toril.

I know the Realms well. I was just tossing out numbers, not actually counting them.

 

[MPA2000]

Sure. When I say it's too many, I mean it's too many if the goal involves having the world follow D&D norms and precedents. If that isn't a goal, you could do whatever, even make all deities Overdeities.

Somebody is going to bring up how there isn't any "norm" because D&D worlds vary so wildly, from no deities (Athas) to a lot of deities, including a ridiculous number of greater powers (Faerun), etc. I don't disagree with that. I still maintain that there is consistency in that Overdeities are extremely rare and not even necessary for a world. Most worlds have either 0 or 1 of them, with Krynn possibly having 2.

No D&D world is split up into portfolios watched over by Overdeities. The basic concept of Overdeities is that they are beyond the concept of portfolios and normal deity stuff.



I can't find a reference to Overdeities in the DMG or SCAG, so you might very well be right--they may not have even been mentioned in official 5e sources. I do remember Jeremy Crawford mentioning Ao in that recent Sage Advice podcast though. The 5e pattern seems to be that AD&D lore is the standard unless stated otherwise. Which is probably a good idea, seeing that AD&D ran for 23 or so years, and most of its lore was also preserved for the next 7 or so years of 3e.



Yeah, it's rather unfortunate. They are also inconsistent about the nature of Demigods. The DMG rejects previous edition usage as the lowest rank of actual deities who can grant spells and such in favor of the literal meaning of a being who has both a mortal and divine parent, but other sources in 5e still refer to demigods in the traditional D&D sense. We have very little reliable info about 5e deities to go on.



That's fine for Marvel, but I'm going with D&D precedent.



I disagree with this assessment. Fate isn't necessarily even a deity. The presentation leans more towards it being a force, though the exact nature was (probably intentionally) left vague. I'm not sure if the Celestial Emperor from Kara-Tur's Celestial Bureaucracy is the same as the Jade Emperor from the standard D&D Celestial Bureaucracy, but the latter is not an Overdeity. Just like Zeus, Odin, and all the other heads of pantheons, they are a greater god, generally one amongst many (the Elven pantheon is odd in that only Corellon is a greater deity). Head of Pantheon rarely if ever equals Overdeity. Overdeities are above pantheons. Unlike heads of pantheons, they aren't worshipped by mortals, and their very existence is usually either unknown to mortals (as Ao was until the Time of Troubles) or known to the learned, but not relevant to mortal religion.

As a tangent, it's rather unclear how the Kara-Tur Celestial Bureaucracy is related to the more general one. They overtly share one or two deities, and there are a few more than might be the same deity viewed a bit differently, but then there are others that are just completely different. I tend to view it like the Elven or Dwarven pantheons. There is one Celestial Bureaucracy. There are a core set of deities known pretty much everywhere, and then there are some that are only well known on certain worlds. The Celestial Bureaucracy probably has a lot of deities (Legends & Lore even mentions one or two in passing without giving them any other attention), with only a handful being universal, and the rest being known in a limited number of worlds.

Maybe at some point we'll get a more accurate and consistent explanation of 5e deities, preferably with a listing of divine ranks. In particular, it is unclear what to do with deities (like most of the Krynn ones) that have only ever been presented as Intermediate Deities, now that that rank has been removed (probably for the better).

I've never been a fan of comments responded to out of context.

 

[MPA2000]

You don't "need", it but, it makes sense. Especially if there are other cultures or ethnic groups or races are on your world.

 

[gyor]

A lot of real world religions have tons of local deities. I've read in some ancient cultures rival brothels would have their own sex Goddess, one part deity, one part company face as it were to boost sales.

Also take into account how big FR is, that deities are allowed to immigrate to it with AOs permission, and how culturally diverse it is.

The main FR pantheon alone is a result of at least for separate cultural mostly human pantheons merging and then various other separate deities joining like Sharess, Tiamat, Bahumet, Hoar (Assuran) and so on. There are reasons why it's so big.

Also remember that each Pantheon is effectively it's own religion.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I've never been a fan of comments responded to out of context.

I'm not really sure what your intended context was that you felt my comments were irrelevant to. I was agreeing with half of what you said anyway. I felt that there were some details worth clarifying.