How many gods is too many gods?

Aldarc

Legend
That's fair enough. My reason for posting the link was to attempt to further discussion, rather than any attempt at a last word - I find Angry to be generally useful, but certainly don't agree with everything he writes! :)

Where I think he has it right, though:

- Fewer well realised gods are probably better than many undefined ones.

- An odd, and indeed prime, number of gods is better than the alternative, to prevent balance and thus to generate conflict.

- It's probably better if deities are not simplistically aligned to Good and Evil - better if you can make a strong argument for both sides of a conflict.

- It's also not wise to be too systematic in the way things are laid out. Yes, there's a certain joy in symmetry and neatness... but it's more interesting to have oddities, gaps, and the like.
I agree with your summation, and I would also add with one of those points that "evil" deities are generally rare in real world religions or at least far rarer than D&D's typical pantheon offerings in its settings. Evil spirits and demons? Sure. But evil deities people actually worship? No. Instead the Law vs. Chaos motif (i.e., Chaoskampf) is far more prominent in real world religions.

Also, since Angry DM mentioned Magic the Gathering, a part of me wants to tinker with 15 deity model, essentially an adapted idea from Ravinca's guilds. Have one major deity/titan for each color and then a lesser "child" deity that is a mix of two colors: 5 major and 10 lesser. You may still only focus on a handful of these, as society will not find them equally valuable, but you would still have them in your pocket.

----

Most of my homebrew setting religions aren't really appropriate for D&D's assusmptions, particularly regarding deities and clerics, so I cannot really offer too many examples or suggestions. I'm a big fan of including a spirit world and/or a fey realm, which engenders more animist religions and syncretist faiths/philosophies that account for that reality.

But in my homebrews that do use deities, I often like having my archfey represent sort of "pagan" nature deities in the popular conception of mortals. So I have reused the idea of having 4 archfey representing the four seasons and other chthonic ideas, but also giving each a lesser consort. Occasionally there is a fifth archfey that represents the Other (e.g., seasonal chaos and balance, destructive weather seasons, etc.). So it is easy to remember eight to ten archfey when they correspond to seasons and grouped in greater and lesser pairs. The archfey can be your "pagan" nature gods: when reality becomes myth, and myth becomes religion. They are still beyond mortal comprehsion and are incredibly alien. But mortals associate the seasonal effects of their strange ways with various abstractions of nature and civilization.

Of course you could also play with this seasonal deity idea and then break the traditional 4 seasons calendar model in favor of the 6 season ecological model. (South Asia may also have a 6 season model.) Or have people think that there are 4 archfey (and their consorts), but really there are 6 archfey (and their consorts). Or play with this further and play with a waxing and waning in terms of influence in northern and southern hemispheres. Or tropical regions generally have two seasons (dry and rainy), so the faerie realm in these regions may have only two fey deities. Or Polar Day and Polar Night archfey.
 

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cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Also, since Angry DM mentioned Magic the Gathering, a part of me wants to tinker with 15 deity model, essentially an adapted idea from Ravinca's guilds. Have one major deity/titan for each color and then a lesser "child" deity that is a mix of two colors: 5 major and 10 lesser.

They've done this in Mtg. Theros block contains 5 primary gods of single colours and 9 of dual colours. A 10th dual coloured god appeared later in the block who was a planeswalker who ascended to godhood.
 
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delericho

Legend
I agree with your summation, and I would also add with one of those points that "evil" deities are generally rare in real world religions or at least far rarer than D&D's typical pantheon offerings in its settings. Evil spirits and demons? Sure. But evil deities people actually worship? No.

Agreed.

At the very least, if they feel they absolutely must assign alignments and absolutely have to have Evil deities, they would (IMO) be well-served to make sure that those evil deities have at least some very strong admirable traits: rather than the God of Badness, they should go for something more like Discworld's Patrician - yes, he's a tyrant and does some really nasty things, but on the other hand he makes the city work better than anyone else, and has actually brought a measure of order and peace to the place. So, do you oppose him because he's evil, or accept him because the alternative would almost certainly be worse?

Also, since Angry DM mentioned Magic the Gathering, a part of me wants to tinker with 15 deity model, essentially an adapted idea from Ravinca's guilds. Have one major deity/titan for each color and then a lesser "child" deity that is a mix of two colors: 5 major and 10 lesser.

Ooh, I really like this. My only objection is that it's a bit too neat, but that could be reasonably easily solved...
 

Caliburn101

Explorer
I like a good number of Gods, but considering the issues raised here which I have long been aware of - I group them into Pantheons and then make those the focus of Cleric domains or theist powers etc. depending on system.

The multiple Pantheon system allows you to have a few macro choices for your Clerics but then be able to have those players choose a real focus and spin depending on which God within the Pantheon they favour.

Here is a simple one I have used some years ago - feel free to use it for your own homebrew;

The Lords of Malediction
Skel’Axios (m) – The Blade Slayer – The Kinslaughterer
Mal’Sharak (m) – The Whisperer in Twilight – The Tenebrous Dictum
Var’Asha (f) – The Flesh Render – The Dark Moon
Hela’Varr (f) – The Cruel Tyrant – The Ebon Empress
Gar’Gorr (m) – The Dark Destroyer – The Immortal Despoiler
Cro’Vane (f) – The Soul Terror – The Mother of Nightmares

The Penumbral Hexad
Axiom (m) – The Lord of Battle – The Great Marshal
Vasha (f) – The Primal One – The Wild Keeper
Iona (f) – The Starry Eyed – The Fate Binder
Morr’Rath (m) – The White Lord – Keeper of the Gate
Lunara (f) – The Keeper of Secrets – The Silver Moon
Kelbor (m) – Lord of the Deeps – The Hidden Tide

The Luminous Senary
Solastor (m) – The Radiant One – Lord of the Shining Throne
Herra (f) – The Law Keeper – Holder of the Holy Tenets
Asherim (m) – The Righteous Flame – Guardian of the Searing Crucible
Mirra (f) – The Merciful Healer – Keeper of the Crimson Chalice
Roan (m) –– The Wise Councillor – Heart of the Atheneum Eternal
Eshani (f) – The Hearth Blessing – Bearer of the Bountiful Chalice
 

gyor

Legend
Sooo, I've been working on my world, and I've been stuck on the gods for a looong while now. I've plundered and pilfered from past editions and other fantasy settings, and now I have (ranked by divinity level)

8 Overdeities- First beings ever created, absolutely untouchable and incredibly powerful (one per base divine domain in PHB)

32 Greater deities- created by the Overdeities, oversee different aspects of their domains (4x OD)

About 20 racial deities, who are basically saints that were helped by the gods at some point and gained divinity status among their people.

Now, all these cover basically any aspect of life possible and give ample choice to any type of player a character may want to make. The problem is, will they be too much to handle?
Obviously only a couple of gods will have actual churches/organisations, the rest will be worshipped mostly on a personal basis, but I'm afraid that their presence won't be felt at all in the world.
But at the same time, if I reduce the gods I have to make the portfolios massively bigger, leading to some people only worshipping one part of what the god oversees, leading me to having to name those parts, leading me back to the beginning basically.

What can I do about this? :(

Forgotten Realms called, it's asking why you have such an under populated Pantheon.

Serious 60 gods is a lot less then the forgotten realms has, FR has almost that many in it's main Pantheon, not including Racial and regional Pantheons.
 

delericho

Legend
Forgotten Realms called, it's asking why you have such an under populated Pantheon.

Serious 60 gods is a lot less then the forgotten realms has, FR has almost that many in it's main Pantheon, not including Racial and regional Pantheons.

I'd hesitate to hold FR up as an example to follow - mostly because it's the product of 50+ years of obsession and attention to detail that almost no DM can match.

Plus, it's worth noting that in that time it has grown up some fairly significant weaknesses, not incidentally including rather too many poorly-defined deities.

As a work, FR is impressive. But if you want a campaign setting of that scope and depth, there's probably only one choice.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
Just a note (don't know if someone has mentioned this yet) -- Owen KC Stephens, Judy Bauer, and others put on a PaizoCon 2018 Seminar about designing faiths for a campaign, and it is a PHENOMENAL listen. They even went through a crazy exercise involving creating a pantheon using a Mad Libs-style form, and it created something far cooler than you would believe by that statement. :) It's well worth a listen and changed how I thought about designing pantheons for a homebrew campaign.

http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2018/06/paizocon2018-013-designing-faiths/
 

I agree with your summation, and I would also add with one of those points that "evil" deities are generally rare in real world religions or at least far rarer than D&D's typical pantheon offerings in its settings. Evil spirits and demons? Sure. But evil deities people actually worship? No. Instead the Law vs. Chaos motif (i.e., Chaoskampf) is far more prominent in real world religions.

Also, since Angry DM mentioned Magic the Gathering, a part of me wants to tinker with 15 deity model, essentially an adapted idea from Ravinca's guilds. Have one major deity/titan for each color and then a lesser "child" deity that is a mix of two colors: 5 major and 10 lesser. You may still only focus on a handful of these, as society will not find them equally valuable, but you would still have them in your pocket.

In my homebrew, people generally recognize three great principles Virtue, Truth and Beauty. The six main religions are defined by how each prioritize those three principles. Evil isn't so much a thing unto its self, but a lack of these three principles.


Most of my homebrew setting religions aren't really appropriate for D&D's assusmptions, particularly regarding deities and clerics, so I cannot really offer too many examples or suggestions. I'm a big fan of including a spirit world and/or a fey realm, which engenders more animist religions and syncretist faiths/philosophies that account for that reality.

But in my homebrews that do use deities, I often like having my archfey represent sort of "pagan" nature deities in the popular conception of mortals. So I have reused the idea of having 4 archfey representing the four seasons and other chthonic ideas, but also giving each a lesser consort. Occasionally there is a fifth archfey that represents the Other (e.g., seasonal chaos and balance, destructive weather seasons, etc.). So it is easy to remember eight to ten archfey when they correspond to seasons and grouped in greater and lesser pairs. The archfey can be your "pagan" nature gods: when reality becomes myth, and myth becomes religion. They are still beyond mortal comprehsion and are incredibly alien. But mortals associate the seasonal effects of their strange ways with various abstractions of nature and civilization.

Of course you could also play with this seasonal deity idea and then break the traditional 4 seasons calendar model in favor of the 6 season ecological model. (South Asia may also have a 6 season model.) Or have people think that there are 4 archfey (and their consorts), but really there are 6 archfey (and their consorts). Or play with this further and play with a waxing and waning in terms of influence in northern and southern hemispheres. Or tropical regions generally have two seasons (dry and rainy), so the faerie realm in these regions may have only two fey deities. Or Polar Day and Polar Night archfey.

I have a sort of East-West elemental fusion; so I have Primetemps/Air, Spring/Wood, Summer/Fire, Fall/Earth, Autumn/Metal and Winter/Water. Each season has a Yin-Seelie and a Yang-Seelie court.
 

MPA2000

Explorer
First, you have too many Overdeities. They don't even exist in most D&D worlds, and in ones where they do there is only one of them (Krynn might possibly have two).

You want those 8 to be Greater Deities. For the remaining 50+, you can just make them all Lesser Deities (or maybe leave a few as Greater Deities).
Can I add my small and insignificant two cents?

There is nothing wrong with having that many Overdieties. In fact we don't even know if such a concept exists in 5e do we? The only god that has stats is Tiamat, and then we have a campaign that later stats the Demon Lords, who don't look any different than gods (if we use her as the template).

Again, I'll use Marvel (not the movie production) Comics as the analogy. They have all of the mythological gods from every pantheon, in the Upper Planes (called Dimensions). Marvel has being that are even more powerful than gods, or skyfathers like Odin or Zeus, such as Lord Chaos and Master Order, Eternity and The Living Tribunal. Either one of them are capable of destroying the entire Universe, yet they are capable of working individually, without overlap/conflict.
 


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