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How many people do you know who haven't switched to 5e, and why haven't they?

Merlin the Tuna

First Post
When we tried 5e, it was like "hmmm. yeah. they got rid of some problems and made stuff simpler. What was new and exciting?" and there was a long pause. It's hard to look at it and say "this is cool". So we went off to play stuff that was cool.

That was pretty much our take as well. Especially since we're spending a lot more time on Real Adult Stuff these days, the desire to spend $100 and 900 pages on an incremental adjustment to 3.5E is just not there. Having branched off into a lot of lighter, quicker, cheaper, and frankly more interesting indies as RPG time has gotten rarer, there just is not anything that screams "Play me!" The only friend of mine who moved to 5E has been singing its praises, but I'm pretty sure it's helped by him having run a 4E campaign all the way to level 30 immediately prior. So clearly his judgement is not to be trusted. :p

Dungeon World and Fate are the latest love affairs, and being actually rules light (whereas 5E is more "rules light if you've only ever played rules heavy games") has been hugely in their favor. Even something like 13th Age, which does some really interesting things and I'd love to try sometime, I just can't see spending the time to crunch through. If we ever go back to D&D, it'll probably be me dragging folks into an E6-ish 4E game. Though even that seems unlikely since computer tools feel totally vital to the game, I'm not paying for Insider (if the 4E tools are even still there?), and the offline ones are either clunky (characters) or straight up busted (monsters).
 

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Nagol

Unimportant
Shame on me to not know. But: what do you consider an E6-ish 4E game...?

E6 refers to a style of D&D where the level is capped relatively low -- the number after the E is the highest possible level. Typically, further character growth is possible but in a sideways direction through feats. Fundamentally it is a way to apply flattened math to earlier versions of D&D and to cap the excessive power of high level spells.

See more here
 

Merlin the Tuna

First Post
Yep. In 4E terms, it basically amounts to making the maximum attainable level 10 (or possibly 11 if you want to give folks just a tiny taste of paragon paths) and letting players take feats or additional lower-level powers beyond that. I haven't gone whole hog on the idea, but my last 4E campaign only had 3 PCs and I pulled some similar hacks to make up for the lack of firepower. An extra level 1 encounter power here, a feat there, maybe an extra level 2 utility (it's been a while). It worked out very nicely, especially since we were running Red Hand of Doom, which would've felt a little weird if I scaled down enemy counts too much.
 

Yep. In 4E terms, it basically amounts to making the maximum attainable level 10 (or possibly 11 if you want to give folks just a tiny taste of paragon paths) and letting players take feats or additional lower-level powers beyond that. I haven't gone whole hog on the idea, but my last 4E campaign only had 3 PCs and I pulled some similar hacks to make up for the lack of firepower. An extra level 1 encounter power here, a feat there, maybe an extra level 2 utility (it's been a while). It worked out very nicely, especially since we were running Red Hand of Doom, which would've felt a little weird if I scaled down enemy counts too much.

This is accomplished well by going the Neverwinter Campaign Setting route and contracting the 3 tiers to level 1-10. You can either just (a) have Character Theme (Features at 1/5/10 as normal), or, alternatively, (b) you can give the players their level 1 Theme ability (at level 1), their level 16 Paragon Path ability (or a derivative thereof at 5), and whatever is their seminal Epic Destiny ability at level 10.
 

Nibelung

First Post
Not to derail the thread - but I've never played 4e, only watched my friends playa couple sessions before they went to PF. The one common comment made about 4e as people went up on level was the extremely long combat times due to the various daily powers and tactical nature of the fights with numerous comments saying 6 hours for some fights. When you mention streamline in 4e, what are you referring to and you or others can PM if you'd like and I'd appreciate it either way.

First off, I want to say that I don't see anything wrong with a 6-hour long combat as long as the combat is interesting during all this time. That is the major difference I see between 3e and 4e (the two D&D editions I played the most).

In 3e many fights would finish in a round or two at mid/high levels, but the combat was really, REALLY long. Because the characters had a bunch of options that could potentially halt the action for math reasons. Eg, you could level drain, exhaust, shivering touch, enfeeble, etc... a monster and that would require the DM to recalculate almost everything in the monster stats. Or they could summon a monster that would break the action economy because now that player could act 2+ times per turn. Or the ranger had a pair of Wounding scimitars that every two hits we had to recalculate the HP the monster because HD was not linked in any logical way with the monster's CR. And I didn't even started talking about how you could have six buff spells, each giving a different bonus type to the same thing, and you had to verify any odd-case casting if that would stack with what was already used or not.

In short, 3e combat was "short", but was tedious and filled with minutiae. You had 20 minutes combats, but that was 5 minutes for each character mostly doing math and not "making decisions" (aka, playing the game).

In 4e, there is very few things (outside dailies) that affect the game for more than one round. The game also assumes you are throwing X monsters against X PCs (instead of the old CR rule that assume a single monsters against a 4-person party, and then good luck if your group had a different size), and also most (non-elite/solo) monsters don't have special attacks beyond a single encounter (or recharge) attack and their racials/basics. This diminishes complexity at the same time it adds depth. So, while on average a 4e combat would last 60-90 minutes, it could last from 6 to 10 rounds, but every round the player would make an important tactical decision to finish the combat. A single individual turn hardly would take more than a minute or two (unless your group REALLY like to talk through every option, but any DM can easily set a time limit for discussion and thinking), and you knew your turn would come back before 10 minutes had passed.

In short, 4e combat was "long", but it actually required you to bring your best tactics to each round, and requires good group coordination to pull off the really impressive tricks. The combat took a long time, but it always had the potential to be an interesting action scene.

Now, 4e have a ton of shortcomings that a lot of their fans are well-aware of it. The most common is usually related with a lack of out-of-combat tools for players beyond Skills (that are kinda too broad), Rituals (that many people ignore because of their monetary cost to cast), and general common sense ("I was on the army, so I know coats of arms", "My mother was an armorsmith, so I might know common alloys", etc).

However, if what you actually like are impressive tactical combats, no edition can match 4e's combat depth. Specially if you have a good DM that know how to use terrain features instead of the good old 10x10 empty room with some columns.
 

Starfox

Hero
Nibelung, I feel Pathfinder cured many of the 3.5 ills you mention, such as the impact of negative levels and attribute damage. And a Pathfinder combat involving terrain usually does so in much more lethal/interesting ways than the infamous page XX of 4E did - when the map has an impact on a combat in Pathfinder, that impact is often close to absolute - no level appropriate falling damage.

But we both digress - this is a thread about who liked 5E.
 

Nibelung

First Post
Nibelung, I feel Pathfinder cured many of the 3.5 ills you mention, such as the impact of negative levels and attribute damage. And a Pathfinder combat involving terrain usually does so in much more lethal/interesting ways than the infamous page XX of 4E did - when the map has an impact on a combat in Pathfinder, that impact is often close to absolute - no level appropriate falling damage.

Maybe. I didn't read PF or joined any group playing it because I fell in love with 4e since day 1. Some of my players did had PF experience, and from what I heard, it kept the main theme D&D always had on "exploration" more than "combat". 4e is still the only system where you can have common well-developed fights instead of one-sided onslaughts with the eventual good fight.

That worked for my group mostly because we noticed that out of combat we usually boiled down to free-form roleplay anyway, so the lack of tools for that on 4e didn't affected us at all. May not work with others that actually enjoy and use those tools with more frequency.

But we both digress - this is a thread about who liked 5E.

Technically, this is a thread about why we didn't switched to 5e, so talking about the good things of your favorite edition is within the topic. B-)
 

That worked for my group mostly because we noticed that out of combat we usually boiled down to free-form roleplay anyway, so the lack of tools for that on 4e didn't affected us at all. May not work with others that actually enjoy and use those tools with more frequency.

Agree with your post above, but not so much this (in fact, I couldn't disagree more). 4e is the only form of D&D with codified noncombat conflict resolution that integrates PC build rules with the resolution mechanics to seamlessly produce dramatic rising action, falling action and denouement for every high fantasy trope out there (assuming sincere, creative players and deft GMing of course)! If is definitely not just "free form roleplay" and the system is certainly not "lacking in tools". More than anything, 4e is my favorite edition of D&D precisely because of this (even moreso than tight encounter budgeting/maths, actor/director stance capacity for players, the coherent/transparent reward cycle, transparent and robust player flags in the way of themes/PP/ED and how the push play toward the conflicts that players care about, the narrative of "the Rally" built into combat, martial/inspirational healing, forced movement, and dynamic/interactive battlefields and bad guys).
 

Demonspell

Explorer
I have started a 5e campaign for my son and his friends, however, I also am running a 3.5 campaign for several years now. We chose not to go to 4e, because of limitations on the classes, and drastic differences between 3.5 and 4e that would have required major changes to the characters, and the players were not willing to accept those changes. The party still doesn't want to switch of 5e because we have characters in teh party that haven't been fully introduced in 5e yet. We have a Psion, and I still haven't seen a finished Psionics supplement yet. I have told them that eventually it will happen, but we need more information first.
 

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