How much effect on ECL should Fast Healing have?

[RangerWickett]

All this quoting. From that alone, I'm impressed. You quote more here than I usually would in an English thesis.

Anyway, I'll just put in a quick note that the super power rules in Four-Color to Fantasy basically give point values to various powers, and how many points you spend determines the effective ECL that your super powers grant you.

You get 8 Hero Points (HrPs) per level, and the most HrPs you can spend on a single power is equal to your level + 3, like for skills. However, you can go over this limit if you want to, but the cost doubles. You basically take the power again, but each Hero Point is worth half as much. You are again limited to level + 3, so if you need to go even higher, you can, at a 3-to-1 ratio cost, and so on.

Fast Healing 1 costs 9 HrPs in the FCTF system.

Thus, by the system in FCTF, the lowest level you could have Fast Healing would be 2nd. At 2nd level, you'd have 16 Hero Points, and no single power could have more than 5 HrPs spent on it. It would look like this:

Fast Healing (5 HrPs): Persistent. You heal 1 hit point per round. Base rank 9. Partial ranks 5. Only partially paid for.
Fast Healing II (4 HrPs): Cost ratio 2:1. Partial ranks 2. Total ranks 7.
Fast Healing III (3 HrPs): Cost ratio 3:1. Partial ranks 1. Total ranks 8.
Fast Healing IV (4 HrPs): Cost ratio 4:1. Partial ranks 1. Total ranks 9. Power fully paid for.

This would let you have Fast Healing 1 at 2nd level, but that's the only power you'd have. At 2nd level, fast healing is very useful, so even though your BAB is only +1, you only have 5 hit points, and your saves all suck, you're likely to survive fairly well.

If you waited until 3rd level to try to get this, you could do so much more easily. Say you're a Fighter 1/Super Hero 2, and so you could have a maximum of 6 HrPs on a single power. Your powers would look like:

Fast Healing (6 HrPs): Persistent. You heal 1 hit point per round. Base rank 9. Partial ranks 6. Only partially paid for.
Fast Healing II (6 HrPs): Cost ratio 2:1. Partial ranks 3. Total ranks 9. Power fully paid for.

And you'd still have 4 HrPs to spend on something else. The power is not quite as useful as it was at lower level, but it's still very good. Once you reach 6th level, you just need to pay the flat 9 HrP cost, and you can actually start going above the base power level. For 17 HrPs, you could have Fast Healing 5, but you'd need to be at least 14th level.

Perhaps it's over-priced, but if you consider how cool and useful healing ability usually is in stories, especially comics, it seems appropriate that fast healing should be expensive. Regeneration is even more costly, but if you want to be kinda munchkin, you could use up a lot of Hero Points and gain both Fast Healing and Regeneration. The system gives you a lot of flexibility, and you'd probably want to fiddle with it for a while before you try to map out a character.

Oh, and as one extra note, in FCTF, we have an optional rule that gives certain powers reduced costs when taken by minor NPCs and monsters. The assumption is that things like regeneration, energy blasts, and flight aren't nearly as useful for one-off opponents as they are for PCs. It's okay for a flying monster to be CR 1, but for a PC to be able to fly, it needs to be at least an ECL adjustment of +2, since he'll be flying all the time. After 5th level, though, when fly spells are available, it'd only be worth an ECL adjustment of +1. I personally agree that ECL does not equal CR.

 

[Jarval]

Re: Re: Can't we all just get along...?

With the proliferation of 'one-hit kill' spells and items at epic levels the boundaries of what constitutes an epic power or attempts to balance them are somewhat blurred.

This is true. BTW, if my knowledge of the epic rules seems a little hazy at times, it's because I don't (yet) own the book.

Its difficult, but not impossible (to balance an ability at both high and low levels).

How do you tackle this issue? Without some kind of sliding scale, where ECL values change at differing levels, I don't see how this can be achieved.

Rapid Healing Ring in the ELH (gives you the Fast Healing Feat for 300,000gp).

However you can have a Vorpal Weapon for much less than that and gain it as an epic feat. So that really puts fast healing into perspective.

The healing powers really are over rated in magic items. 300,000 gp? That's twice the price of some of the most potent items in the DMG!

I think its easy to use an example set by WotC. If you notice some Templates have a variable modifier depending on how powerful the base creature is - its easy to apply something similar to this system (though epic characters or monsters would be the de facto standard).

How does this work with a PC? With an NPC or monster, the CR adjustment can be applied in a straightforwards manner, but with a PC this would result in a variable ECL adjustment.

I'll try; thanks for the encouragement mate!

Hey, if anyone has any questions/feedback about my rules or reasoning I am always happy to respond/listen.

Expect yet more questions to come in your direction then

 

[Jarval]

RangerWickett: An interesting system. As you say, the values assigned are only suitable for the superhero genre, but the HrPs cost could be scaled to work with other settings.

Oh, and as one extra note, in FCTF, we have an optional rule that gives certain powers reduced costs when taken by minor NPCs and monsters. The assumption is that things like regeneration, energy blasts, and flight aren't nearly as useful for one-off opponents as they are for PCs. It's okay for a flying monster to be CR 1, but for a PC to be able to fly, it needs to be at least an ECL adjustment of +2, since he'll be flying all the time. After 5th level, though, when fly spells are available, it'd only be worth an ECL adjustment of +1. I personally agree that ECL does not equal CR.

While I can see the reasoning behind this, doesn't this have some unfortunate in-game effects? What happens when a PC with the flight power levels up from 4th to 5th? Do they gain an extra level, or become (in effect) a level behind the rest of the party?

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, you have a Hero class that grants 'Hero Points.' You spend the HrPs on super powers, so it's not exactly ECL. You have actual levels in there. You might be a Fighter 2/Hero 2, who spent most of his HrPs on flight.

Then you level up, becoming a Fighter 3/Hero 2. What happens next depends on how nice your GM is.

A mean GM says, "Hey, you had an advantage in power at lower levels," (even though you really didn't) "so you just have to live with the fact that some of your Hero Points were wasted."

An average GM says, "If you want to reassign your Hero Points a little, then you'll have to be okay when other PCs or NPCs change a few things when they level up. I don't see a real reason you should be penalized now, because as is, your character is now a little underpowered. But if you don't want Jack's sorcerer to change one of his Summon Monster I into Summon Monster II, then you won't get to rearrange your HrPs." With the HrPs you free up, the GM might let you add a subtle super power, like mild super speed (+10 ft.), which you might've had the whole time without anyone noticing.

An overly kind GM says, "Hey, sure, rearrange the HrPs. And if you want, feel free to add in some new powers while you're at it." With the HrPs you free up, you might acquire a weak energy blast, which you never had before. Your rationalization is that you leveled up, so you're stronger, so you can gain an energy blast if you want to.

Whichever version you're comfortable with is valid. I'm personally average, edging slightly toward over-kind.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You can still use the CRs from the ELH (for the most part*) - though I suggest you still modify the PCs (using the CR modifier for high levels).

eg. You could still use the Phaethons CR34 (as per the ELH) but if the party are 34th-level (average) they are CR27.

*A few of the ELH monsters however, won't work like this: notably the Hecatonchiere; Xixecal; Hunefer; Devastation Vermin and the Epic Dragons. Most of the others are close enough to use without causing too many problems.

I'm not sure if I understand correctly. Are you saying the Phaethon is CR 34 in that a party of 34th level characters could fight it normally (the traditional 20% of resources), or that it is CR 34 in that it it a challenge for whatever a CR 38 party would be in your system?

 

[S'mon]

If you take the Core Rules definition that CR measures combat threat of NPCs and ECL is usefulness to PCs, Fast Healing is a much bigger ECL boost than CR boost. I'd put FH 1 at least ECL +2, but no CR difference. Fast Healing 10 I'd say ECL +5 was about right, CR +2, maybe +3. But FH 10 is a huge boost at low levels and trivial at very high levels. Your problem (Craig & Anubis) is that CR/ECL is a geometric system, not an arithmetic one, and pretty crude at that.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

If you take the Core Rules definition that CR measures combat threat of NPCs and ECL is usefulness to PCs, Fast Healing is a much bigger ECL boost than CR boost. I'd put FH 1 at least ECL +2, but no CR difference.

+2 to ECL just for Fast Healing 1 sounds a bit harsh. But you're right: ECL and CR are not the same! CR takes into account that the creature will be on-screen for a minute or so (sometimes even as little as 10 seconds), while ECL assumes that he's acting all the time.
In this special case Fast Healing won't be to powerful for a Monster: Say it's got 100 HP and fast healing 10. It gets 30 points of damage on average per round, so it would fall in the 4th round without its Fast Healing. With FH, it will fall one round later. That's not that much (6 seconds more to worry the Heroes). If they slay it, it's fast healing won't help it, and if it kills the Players, the game's over and the monster won't matter.
But for a character, even Fast Healing 2 or 3 means that he can recover completely within 10 minutes (or less). It might not be that useful in the combats themselves, but PC's do more than fight. And ECL covers everything, not just combat.

Although it's a bit odd that a Drow with 5 class levels is a proper enemy for a Drow PC with 4 class levels (See Faiths and Pantheons).

 

[Upper_Krust]

About FCTF.

Hi Ryan mate!

Out of curiousity what other powers are rated in FCTF equal to Fast Healing (its difficult to judge without knowing a few others to rate it against)?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Can't we all just get along...?

Hi Jarval mate!

This is true. BTW, if my knowledge of the epic rules seems a little hazy at times, it's because I don't (yet) own the book.

Its pretty good (7/10*) compared to Deities & Demigods (4/10*).

*In my opinion.

How do you tackle this issue? Without some kind of sliding scale, where ECL values change at differing levels, I don't see how this can be achieved.

Exactly. You only really need it at low/mid levels. Certainly not at Epic Levels.

The healing powers really are over rated in magic items. 300,000 gp? That's twice the price of some of the most potent items in the DMG!

It is a bit pricey!

How does this work with a PC? With an NPC or monster, the CR adjustment can be applied in a straightforwards manner, but with a PC this would result in a variable ECL adjustment.

Seemingly unavoidable.

Expect yet more questions to come in your direction then

Bring it on!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I'm not sure if I understand correctly. Are you saying the Phaethon is CR 34 in that a party of 34th level characters could fight it normally (the traditional 20% of resources), or that it is CR 34 in that it it a challenge for whatever a CR 38 party would be in your system?

I can see I am going to have to work on my terminology; using the same terms to describe different (though similar and related) ideas is whats attributing to the confusion herein.

Fortunately most of the problems are caused by WotC.

The official Challenge Rating system becomes less and less accurate the higher above CR20 you ascend! It doesn't balance to level and it doesn't balance to numbers of opponents.

My system solves these problems - but you have to convert BOTH the monsters AND the PCs for it to work.

My point with the Epic Rules was that many of the monsters are close to the modified challenge rating I would assign anyway; so they could be used 'as is'. However the PCs would still need to be modified.

A Phaethon is roughly equivalent to a 62nd-level character - its modified challenge rating is 35. A 44th-level character has a modified challenge rating of 31. Therefore x4 44th-level characters are equal to a Phaethon.

A party of x4 characters still have the same overall CR - but an NPC party of x4 characters are +4 CR.