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How much should players be expected to actively contribute to the group's dynamics?

Mallus

Legend
Well, ideally, the players are the group dynamic and the DM merely responds to the crazy, proactive shi stuff they do...

... but seeing as this isn't an ideal world, I suppose the answer is: enough players need to actively contribute so as to keep the DM, along with their fellow players, interested.

A D&D campaign can be likened to improvisation group. The participants need to play/feed off of one another. Not everyone needs to participate equally, but a single person can't carry the show -- even if they happen to be the one wearing the Viking hat :).

My advice: tell your group you're thinking of taking a break. See how they respond. If they show an interest in continuing play, take it from there, express your concerns and ask for suggestions for improving play.
 

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kitsune9

Adventurer
You pose an interesting problem Innerdude, it's definitely a challenge for a lot of GM's who want their players to give 110% to the game, but are definitely seeing a lot less.

Here are a few suggestions you can try:

1. Establish different expectations within the game. Tell your players that you will reward their characters when they do something unexpectedly as a bonus. For example, when you present a situation of breaking into a villian's manorhouse, you state that will you reward XP only for planning and roleplaying with each other for the encounter. Whether there is fighting or their plan goes to crap is not the point--the point is get them engaged. Continue to do this and this will establish a habit of contributing instead of just going with the flow.

2. Focus on weak players to pull their weight. Giving everyone the spotlight is a GM's responsibility in a lot of campaign articles, but there are weak players who if they are just going with the flow, then put the spotlight on them. Maybe they just need a little limelight in order to get them out of their malaise. Create situations in which the player must roleplay out a situation to help their friends. Again, you're not looking for success or failure, but engagement to the situation. Also, you'll let them know upfront that there is a reward associated with the encounter so that they will think that in order to get it, they will need to try to be successful.

3. Sometimes, being serious is not the way to go. Shy players tend to not react from tense situations moreso than light ones. Create some humor in the encounters or in the game. If you have really deep or dark subjects, drop them in a more G or PG (not PG-13) setting.

4. Hold your players hands. For kids and new players (or players who haven't matured enough to know what to do on their own), you pretty much should construct situations that puts them on the rails. If your GMing style is a Sandbox or a simple, "You guys are in a tavern, what do you do?" then you should look at your GMing style and probably create some railroads so that players are specifically thrusted into a situation, there is one or two exits from it, and then it moves onto another situation.

5. You need Jared's help. Jared seems like the experience member of the group. You and him should have a pow-wow and come up with ways for him to play characters that put the other players up to the forefront and for you to capitalize on it as well. For example, pick the most shy player in the group and make that person the leader. Jared roleplays a character who becomes a devoted follower to the leader. Jared will constantly defer to the leader to make decisions for the group. If other players disagree with the leader's plan, then Jared rushes to their defence in character.

Oftentimes, players who play rpgs passively are either inexperienced, not really vested, or lazy. It doesn't seem like you have lazy players, but inexperienced ones, so they don't know how to make the most out of a situation. This is where you and Jared need to show them how it's done, tie the rewards to performing as such, and focusing bit by bit on getting them to become independent.

However, if you have players where they are just simply not vested into the experience, there's nothing you're going to do to help them because it's a matter of them wanting to be somewhere else instead of in that player's chair. If that's truly the case, then let them go do something else.
 
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Rel

Liquid Awesome
After reading Robin Laws' "Laws of Good Gamemastering" a few years ago I came to understand that the "Casual Gamer" is a valid playstyle. Sometimes it's a phase that people pass through on the way to something else but for others it is just how they are.

I recommend you talk with them about the fact that it's ok for somebody to be a Casual Gamer. But if almost everybody in the group is a Casual Gamer then it means that either nothing gets done or else the few (in your case one) remaining players have to make all the decisions.

Ask them if there is something you can inject into the game to make it more exciting for them. Are there plot elements that tie to their backstories or particular bad guys that they want to fight or anything that they feel will give them more of an emotional kick. If the answer is Yes then you can try and provide that and make sure they know when you're doing it and look for the reaction you're hoping for.

If the answer is No then it may be worth considering doing something else with this group of people that isn't a RPG. Play board games or Rock Band or watch movies or something like that where you still get to hang out and have fun but you're not putting in all this effort of building the Christmas present and wrapping it up only to have them leave it sitting under the tree.

I also think it's worth putting the word out to your players who haven't been showing up to find out if that is a temporary thing or not. I have had Casual Gamers in my groups until quite recently and I think they are a welcome addition so long as there are enough movers and shakers to keep the game going. If those other players are planning to rejoin soon then you may have less of a problem on your hands.
 

lamia

First Post
I would XP Kitsune, but apparently I must spread it around!

Lovely suggestions, I will just tack a couple more on.

My group is mostly new players, so early on I asked my boyfriend to run a one-off for us so that I could play with the ladies who seemed the least active. He ran a game for us with pre-gens, and I tried to sort of show them some of the things that are possible by playing with them.

It seemed to really help. I think they just needed a bit of guidance, and actually being a player with them helped me do that easier than I could on the other side of the screen. Perhaps Jared wouldn't mind doing this for you?

I also started throwing out rewards every now and then based on individual contributions. Everyone still gets the same standard XP, but I'll throw in something extra in the way of skill points or abilities. For instance, when one of my shy players decided to investigate a temple to a god she'd never seen, I gave her a couple ranks in knowledge history because she chose to peruse their extensive library.

Nothing game breaking, just little things. One of the players was thrilled when a halfling kid she'd spent some time talking to showed up the next day with fake tusks stuck to his face to try to be more like her. This had no actual reward, but it showed her actions do something.

Anyhow, sorry for the ramble. I'm breaking my no posting when delirious rule once again. Hope you can get it all sorted out!
 

shadzar

Banned
Banned
How much can/should/do I realistically expect a player to bring to the table to add to the group's fun?

Quite a lot actually. Good that a player isn't bringing disruption, but they have to be engaged in some manner.

I would say to have Jared, politely, ask them why they don't do more during the game. Make it sort of like a group thing to find out if it is something about the game itself. Might be difficult considering a player is your wife...

If too difficult, then ask yourself if they just aren't interested or what?

I have never had an all-in-the-family fame so don't know, but don't think you could swap out ANY of the players, except for your friend...

It seems like a tought spot to me for sure.
 

Rune

Once A Fool
Seems like there's just no emotional attachment. If possible (that is, if you know the personalities of your players well enough), you could try to find a way to engage one of them by throwing a hook out there that you just know at least one of them can get passionate about.

Don't try to get the players to carry the story; try to get at least one of them to emotionally react to it. Once you've got one, things should probably pick up. After a while, you could rotate this tactic to another player.

If you throw the perfect hook out there and still no one is enthusiastic, there may be some actual resistance to emotional investment, for some reason. If that's the case, maybe a different kind of game would be the way to go.
 

A

amerigoV

Guest
And say what you will about power gamers--but their motivations are transparent, and they're generally easy to please, and they're certainly proactive. In that regard I'd rather have a table of raging power gamers than a table of passive dice-rollers.

So true - there is no question us powergamers are the BEST gamers!


So do we abandon the group and start over? Go our separate ways and say it was fun while it lasted? Should I talk to the players about it? And is it unreasonable to expect players to bring something other than their dice and a smile when they sit down to play?

I presume you have been talking D&D here. One idea might be to try a different genre. Some two-fisted, rail-roady pulp might be just the thing to get them enjoying the game again. Pulp is fun and over the top - just say "think like the characters in Indy Jones or the Mummy". A bit of railroad is not a bad thing since there is not a strong decision maker. In other words, take em for a ride and make them hang on!

Being a Savage Worlds guy, I would recommend the Savage Worlds book ($10) and some of the adventures put out by Triple Ace Games - I have been itching to run them because it looks like Indiana Jones or the Mummy.

A few links for you to consider.
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Worlds-Explorers-S2P10010-Staff/dp/0979245567]Amazon.com: Savage Worlds Explorers Edition (S2P10010) (9780979245565): Staff: Books[/ame]

(hmm, TAG games seems to be having internet trouble - must be resident in Egypt or something).

There are tons of free or cheap games out there. It might be a good time to try something different.
 

Rel

Liquid Awesome
Not to proselytize too much about Savage Worlds, but one thing I like about that system is the way a lot of people use the Hindrance/Bennie system in it to encourage good roleplaying. It's not written in the rules but many GMs (myself included) hand out Bennies when people play into their Hindrances.

Just so the terminology is clear, Hindrances are basically flaws that are part of the character building system. And Bennies are sort of like Action Points.

Say a PC took the Curious Hindrance, which means that they tend to be unable to resist looking around that next corner. When those moments crop up in the game and the player knows that it's dangerous to check out what is down that corridor but they go ahead and do it anyway, I give them a Bennie. They'll probably end up spending it anyway dealing with whatever dangerous thing is down that tunnel!

This encourages them to look for opportunities to play up the parts of their character that don't always benefit them directly. It's obviously not necessary to have a mechanical underpinning for good roleplaying. I just think it helps people keep it in mind.
 

innerdude

Legend
Great comments and suggestions from everyone.

To Rel and Amerigo:

I've already got physical copies of the Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition core rulebook and the Savage Worlds fantasy companion, so we've got that covered. =) I'm highly enthralled by the rules, and think they make a great system for a number of different settings, and I'm definitely going to try them.

Update on our situation:

After talking it out with everyone, we're going to tentatively move the game to a different night (we play weekly), one that more people will be able to join regularly.

We played a game tonight (more on that in another thread) that went pretty well, but true to form, Jared didn't show. So, it sounds to me like he's just basically done with the whole thing, so I'm not counting on him.

However, the remaining group seems to be fairly committed to keeping the game going, we talked a bit about making more conscious efforts to be more engaged at the table and with the characters, and they seemed positive about it.

Plus, one of my MIA players showed up and added a spark, and another player who's only been semi-regular made a breakthrough with his character tonight that really added to the gameplay.

So for now, we're moving forward with the game on Thursday evenings, and people are on board with it. My sister-in-law's boyfriend (the WoD player) has a conflict with a Shadowrun game that he's currently playing on Thursdays, but it sounds like that game is only in its infancy, and he's not really totally committed to it if it doesn't work out, and would come back in a heartbeat if it dies, so we'll have to keep an eye on that.

But, the game's on much more solid footing than it was a couple of days ago, and having honest dialogue about it was very useful.

I'm sad that Jared doesn't seem all that interested in continuing, but it's his life, and his time to spend, and so we wish him well, and we'll always have time for a good game of Dominion or Castle Ravenloft with him.
 

I too struggle sometimes about getting players to act on their own. My group plays one weekend a month (I DM one day, I play another). In both campaigns my group tends to follow the adventure, wherever that may lead.

We're just not a "sandbox style" group.

I think that's ok. I also think that our group COULD enjoy a sandbox style world, but that would have to be put forward as a theme or proposition for a new style of play.



For your specific group, if you want to do sandbox style, I'd make that explicit. They might surprise you. On the other hand, if they enjoy taking your hooks and following through, then great!

But, regardless, if you want them to engage more in character/roleplaying I'd suggest two things:

1. Style of DMing: DMs can do things like intentionally using a lot of vibrant NPC characters and refusing to break character to draw in PC roleplaying. Mood (set by lighting, props, music, tone, etc) can help draw in players. I'm talking subtly here, not over the top. By props I mean printing out a picture of a special magic item for example.

2. Getting in your players' heads: Does your wife love a specifc TV series? Book series? Any favorite characters? Make it easy for her to interact in that setting. It may feel more resonant/real to her, and draw out some emotion to her character. This can be "hon, just pretend to be this character you love" or you could have a couple of NPCs show up who are clearly drawn from the series. My own wife loves the show "Supernatural", and I'm sure if she were playing a "hunter" in D&D, if Sam and Dean were to show up for an adventure, she would suddenly perk up/be invested more than usual.
 
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