How Often Does Your Group Cast Stoneskin?

[Nail]

But, a single Wish (or some types of Miracle) spell at 20th level is still 5000 XP and still 25+% of a level. That is definitely substantial.

No argument there!

I found it worth my while to "bank" some of my XP as I got close to leveling, as that way I'd make up the difference the next meeting.

How do you "bank" XP? Tomes of "X", my friend. Start at +1 inherent in the Tome, and work your way up.

 

[Nail]

On the one hand, the financial argument makes sense from a rules perspective, but its hard to argue our characters would see it that way. Imagine a cop or a soldier saying, "I'm not going to wear my armored vest today, because if I get shot, I have health care and they'll patch me up for free. But if my vest gets damaged, that comes out of my salary."

Given the lack of resurrection spells in the Real World, I'm not sure how useful it is to make the RL comparison. I.e. Stoneskin |= armored vest.

My PC knows about Heal, CLW, Restoration, and Stoneskin spells. It would make sense that he also has thought through which are useful in which situation.

 

[phindar]

Given the lack of resurrection spells in the Real World, I'm not sure how useful it is to make the RL comparison. I.e. Stoneskin |= armored vest.

I agree that the comparison is not particularly useful. I was commenting more that because parts of the D&D rules are so fundamentally different from reality (Cures, Heals, and Resurrections, as you mentioned), that our character's decision making processes can get pretty alien.

 

[Infiniti2000]

And, the GP cost doesn't hurt playability at all. It makes people decide, which from a playability standpoint, is a good thing.
...
You appear to be arguing that balance is a bad thing.

Not at all. Balance is a good thing. I'm saying that a high gold piece cost (as a means to maintain balance) is a bad thing because it changes the way the game is played in a bad way. In my opinion. For example, when the wizard goes to prepare his fourth level spells and is choosing between stoneskin and some other spell, it's not entirely about which one he may need or which one may be more useful. It's that plus maybe he can get away without stoneskin and save the 250 gp. I dislike instilling that attitude, which every wizard (or whatever caster) will have because, let's face it, money is important to PCs (not so much to NPCs).

Sure, a careful analysis like what Nail suggests may show that the cost is negligible in the face of the hoped-for gains but that's not an attitude I want to foster in heroes. The standard D&D party should not include an accountant IMO.

 

[KarinsDad]

Not at all. Balance is a good thing. I'm saying that a high gold piece cost (as a means to maintain balance) is a bad thing because it changes the way the game is played in a bad way. In my opinion. For example, when the wizard goes to prepare his fourth level spells and is choosing between stoneskin and some other spell, it's not entirely about which one he may need or which one may be more useful. It's that plus maybe he can get away without stoneskin and save the 250 gp. I dislike instilling that attitude, which every wizard (or whatever caster) will have because, let's face it, money is important to PCs (not so much to NPCs).

Except that Stoneskin is SO powerful for its level that without that moment of thought, the spell becomes a no brainer and the alternative 4th level spell is almost never taken in its place.

That's worse than having to think about whether to take it or not.

Sure, a careful analysis like what Nail suggests may show that the cost is negligible in the face of the hoped-for gains but that's not an attitude I want to foster in heroes. The standard D&D party should not include an accountant IMO.

Come on now!

Half of the game is about totally distorted economics and how players make decisions concerning them. 250 GP is a drop in the bucket compared to most of the economic decisions in the game (some of our players tithe 1000 GP to their temples without blinking an eye at mid levels).

Player: "Is it really worth it for me to buy a +3 Ring at 18,000 GP, or should I just use my +2 Ring and save the money for something else?"

NPC: "I will sell you the information on where to find the Princess for 10,000 GP. Take it or leave it."

Economic decisions happen all of the time in DND games.


Even at low level, I have seen PCs buy Alchemist Fire, Tanglefoot Bags, and Thunderstones. 20 GP to 50 GP is worth a lot more at low level than 250 GP is worth at mid to high levels.

I think you just dislike the fact that this spell has strings attached unlike most other spells.

 

[Agamon]

I cast it conintually on the tanks in NWN2. I don't recall seeing it cast in 3.x, though.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Except that Stoneskin is SO powerful for its level that without that moment of thought, the spell becomes a no brainer and the alternative 4th level spell is almost never taken in its place.

I won't disagree with that. Without a costly component and leaving it at level 4, though, how would you rebalance the spell? DR 5?

Half of the game is about totally distorted economics and how players make decisions concerning them. 250 GP is a drop in the bucket compared to most of the economic decisions in the game (some of our players tithe 1000 GP to their temples without blinking an eye at mid levels).
...
I think you just dislike the fact that this spell has strings attached unlike most other spells.

I agree. But those strings are annoying. We hatessss them!

 

[Victim]

Except that Stoneskin is SO powerful for its level that without that moment of thought, the spell becomes a no brainer and the alternative 4th level spell is almost never taken in its place.

Is it?

The DR granted by Stoneskin excels in situations where the main threat is coming from lots of low damage (non adamantine) physical attacks. Otherwise, it's not so great. For instance, if people can reach the target, then alternative attacks besides damage can be used - like grapple or trip to restrict the target's actions and set up Power Attack for breaching the DR. If average attacks are doing about twenty points of damage, then Stoneskin is preventing about 1/2 damage. Like Displacement, but higher level, a bit narrower (displacement can help against touch attacks and the like), and longer lasting.

Without a component cost, the spell could use a hit in duration - I think that the upfront cost counterbalances the tendency to use 10 minute spells as just in case prebuffs - but it hardly becomes the uber 4th level spell. Greater Invis (while it lasts) is similarly good on defense - 50% miss chance plus certain misses from attacks aimed in the wrong square - denies dex to most foes, and can be used to get surprise. D-Door is also valuable as a defensive spell since it can get the caster out of bad situations like grapples. Looking at 4th level spells as whole, Evard's and Enervation provide some tough competition. If we open the comparison to non core spells, Greater Mirror Image is a strong defensive spell which protects for a decent duration and casts as an immediate action to handle ambushes. And the Orb spells are nice offensively.

 

[KarinsDad]

Is it?

Yes.

The DR granted by Stoneskin excels in situations where the main threat is coming from lots of low damage (non adamantine) physical attacks. Otherwise, it's not so great. For instance, if people can reach the target, then alternative attacks besides damage can be used - like grapple or trip to restrict the target's actions and set up Power Attack for breaching the DR. If average attacks are doing about twenty points of damage, then Stoneskin is preventing about 1/2 damage. Like Displacement, but higher level, a bit narrower (displacement can help against touch attacks and the like), and longer lasting.

Without a component cost, the spell could use a hit in duration - I think that the upfront cost counterbalances the tendency to use 10 minute spells as just in case prebuffs - but it hardly becomes the uber 4th level spell. Greater Invis (while it lasts) is similarly good on defense - 50% miss chance plus certain misses from attacks aimed in the wrong square - denies dex to most foes, and can be used to get surprise.

The first difference is that Greater Invisibility is one round per level. Stoneskin lasts 100 times as long. This often means 2 or 3 (or sometimes even 4+) combats for one spell (depending on how often the protected creature gets hit), not one combat. Multi-battle protection is pretty nice. One would have to cast Greater Invisibility several times to get the same protection.

The second difference is that Greater Invisibility is more obviously a spell (unless the protected creature does nothing). Any opposing spell caster will more likely cast a spell to counter the Invisibility in some way before casting a spell to prevent DR/10 that the opposing spell caster is probably not even aware of (unless table talk is allowed to affect the game).

DR / 10 can also sometimes totally prevent poison or other damage, even if the protected creature gets hit if the attack does 10 or less damage (which many special attacks do).

At 7th level when Stoneskin first shows up, PC fighter types (unless using some of the newer books or unless a Half-Orc with 18 Str) might be doing 6 for Str with a two handed weapon, 7 for the weapon, 2 for Weapon Specialization, and 2 for magic. That's 17 on average (for a fairly high end PC two handed weapon fighting Fighter) without additional magic, 13 on average for a sword and board fighter.

NPC fighter types should typically average somewhat less than PC fighter types. Maybe 14 two handed weapon, 10 sword and board points of damage. So at 7th level, it stops about 70% to 100% of the damage of NPC fighter type attacks compared to the 50+% (depending on if the opponent knows where the target is) of Greater Invisibility. If the NPC fighter type Power Attacks to get through the DR better, he hits less often which again, protects the PC with the Stoneskin even more.

Ditto for other CR 7 monsters out of the Monster Manual. Almost all of them average way less than 20 hits per successful attack that you mentioned. The average and max damage for them (without criticals) is:

11.5  14  Aboleth
19    26  Animated Object Gargantuan
11    16  Black pudding
17    24  Bulette
26    44  Cachalot whale
 4     5    Chaos beast
11    14  Chimera
12    17  Chuul
13    18  Criosphinx
15    18  Dire bear
11    16  Dragonne
 5.5   8  Drider
21    28  Elasmosaurus
13    20  Elemental, Huge air
20    29  Elemental, Huge earth
13    20  Elemental, Huge fire
 6.5   9  Elemental, Huge water
24    31  Elephant
 9    12  Formian, taskmaster
 8.5  13  Ghost, 5th level fighter
19    26  Giant, hill
14    21  Golem, flesh
10.5  14  Hellcat (devil)
 9.5  14  Hydra, eight-headed
 8.5  13  Hydra, six-headed cryo-
 8.5  13  Hydra, six-headed pyro-
11    16  Invisible stalker
 9.5  13  Lillend
 3.5   6  Medusa
10.5  14  Monstrous scorpion, Huge
11    16  Naga, water
 2.5   4  Nymph
22    29  Ogre barbarian
21    28  Remorhaz
32    42  Skeleton, cloud giant
14    21  Slaad, red
 4.5   8  Spectre
 4.5   7  Succubus (demon)
14    14  Umber hulk
17    20  Vampire, 5th-level human fighter
11    16  Yuan-ti abomination

Even if one drops the non-combatant Drider, Nymph, and Succubus out of this list (the rest of these creatures will attack in melee as an alternative), the average damage is 13.7 and the average max damage is 18.9.

A 7th level Fighter with 64 hit points and a 7th level Stoneskin up can typically handle 13 such 13.7 successful hits before going unconscious. The same Fighter with Greater Invisibility (assuming his square is known) can handle 10. The same Fighter with no special protection can handle 5.

Per casting, Stoneskin will typically stop a lot more physical damage than Greater Invisibility. It will not stop things like single target spells.

From a healing point of view at 7th level, stopping 70 points of damage is the equivalent of 2 4th level Cure Critical spells and a 3rd level Cure Serious spell (or 7+ 1st level Cure Light Wounds spells). That's quite a savings for the PC healer. That's at least 3 rounds of healing that can be often handled before any combat even starts.

At 15th level, it's one 6th level Heal or 4 4th level Cure Critical spells and a 2nd level Cure Moderate spell.

So yes, it is worth more than most other 4th level spells with regard to physical combat protection (or healing afterwards).

Greater Invisibility is worth more against spells (no argument there), but still typically has to be cast once per combat.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The comparison to curative spells is inappropriate. As an example, your argument suggests that resist energy should have a 250 gp material component. Compare it with other protective spells, but judging it against same level curative spells will certainly lead you to an inaccurate conclusion.