D&D 5E How Old-School is 5th Edition? Can it even do Old-School?


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Burnside

Space Jam Confirmed
Supporter
People talking about how every 1st level character is assumed to have at least an 18 in its main stat, but better a 20.

This one really jumped out at me because in 5 years of playing 5E, I have never had a character who started out with an 18 or better in any ability score. Using the standard array or point buy rules, it's literally impossible to have an ability score higher than 17 at level 1.

Regarding the "battlemasters with a full page of maneuvers" thing...I mean, they have a full page to choose from at level 3. They only actually get to have three of them, though. Regarding "rogues getting sneak attack every round" the caveat is "potentially, if they can set up for it correctly."

I feel like you're cherry picking certain things in your post and considering them in a vacuum. Lower level characters have more hit points and more access to healing than in 1E or 2E, true. However, monsters also do more damage and are more accurate. For me, one of the things that really jumps out at me about 5E is that in a reasonable game where the DM doesn't shower the players with magic items, it's quite difficult to get a high Armor Class - and even if you do, you're getting hit anyway. A fighter with plate mail and a shield has an AC of 20. A goblin has a +4 to hit. So even with the best non-magical armor in the game, a goblin is gonna hit you with a 16 or better on a D20. And do 1d6+2 damage, and then disengage as a bonus action and move out of melee or hide. Meanwhile, a 1E goblin is only hitting an 1E AC 0 fighter by rolling a natural 20. It's 4x less likely to successfully hit the fighter than the 5E goblin is, and if it does hit it's doing less damage.

So, yes, 1st level 5E characters are stronger than 1st level 1E characters. But 5E characters are not facing 1E goblins. They're facing 5E goblins. They're designed for a game where fights are shorter and involve way less missing on attacks. And +1 plate mail? In most 5E campaigns, you're never finding it. Magic items are way rarer.

Magical healing isn't designed to keep pace with damage in 5E - it's just designed to prevent death. So if you limit or eliminate short rest and long rest healing, the characters likely aren't going to be able to deal with the amount of damage they're taking. Monster design in 5E assumes short and long rest healing exists, and increases monster damage output accordingly.

One other note about healing: one thing many players do not like about "old school" games is playing the cleric, because they are relegated to being healbots. Short rest and long rest healing is designed specifically to address that complaint, allowing clerics and other characters who CAN heal to have more fun and not reserve all their spell slots for healing. Take away short rest and long rest healing, and you force them right back into the healbot role.

Having said all that, I don't think anybody thinks 5E is like 1E or 2E because it's "gritty". I think they think hearkens back to 1E and 2E in the sense that philosophically it puts the DM in the driver's seat more than 3E or 4E did, by empowering the DM and putting the emphasis back on rulings instead of rules, and not trying to create rules to cover every possible situation but instead being comfortable with DM fiat.
 
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Lidgar

Gongfarmer
In addition to all the above, adding level drain for certain undead and tougher magic resistance for some foes.

For example, drow were known to have insanely high AC and brutal MR in many 1e campaigns.

Oh, and don't forget to drop in some rules for attracting followers. I'd have those start at level 10, same level as when most classes are "titled" and have built a stronghold.
 



pming

Legend
Hiya!

Well, ask yourself this: How many things would it take to change 5e into a "1e/2e like game"? Now ask yourself a different question: "What about 5e do you consider a requirement for it to be considered 5e"? Now, the final boss question: "Would it be easier to just go the other way, and take the handful of things you like from 5e and use them in a 1e/2e game"?

If I had to pick the top couple of "5e feels"...: Adv/Disadv, Death Saves, Conditions, and massive HP pools.

It would be relatively trivial to just say "Ok, we're playing a 1e game, but using Adv/Disadv, Death Saves, Conditions and everyone and everything has max HP for their HD". It might still 'feel' like 1e...but it would definitely feel different. Play that, find out what's killing the 1e mood (if anything) then drop that. So if it's Max HP...gone. Back to 1e HP's. Rinse and repeat until you get a game you like.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

If you want to recreate the experiences I actually had in ye olden days - adversarial dming, lots of unnecessary rolls on random tables, and no sense of balance are all quite achievable with 5e's ruleset.

If you want to recreate the experience I had playing 1e with people who rejected 3e, then you need to build a megadungeon.

If you want the OSR version of old-school play... I'm told 5e does this okay, but frankly there's so many better options for such low prices that I wouldn't recommend trying to do it with 5e.
 

Here's one definition of old school

“The more of the following a campaign has, the more old school it is: high lethality, an open world, a lack of pre-written plot, an emphasis on creative problem solving, an exploration-centered reward system (usually XP for treasure), a disregard for "encounter balance", and the use of random tables to generate world elements that surprise both players and referees. Also, a strong do-it-yourself attitude and a willingness to share your work and use the creativity of others in your game.”

Here's another:

Rulings, not Rules
Player Skill, not Character Abilities
Heroic, not Superhero
Forget “Game Balance.”

5e:
High lethality, forget game balance: I don't think 5e is set up very well for these concerns. Death saves and abundant healing (via spells and rests) make it more difficult for characters to die without a bunch of optional rules. Even then PCs will have more ways to mitigate lethal situations. You can forget game balance to make things more dangerous, so I guess that's down to dm style, but it feels against the spirit of the game and the way it's typically played.

Player skill, not character abilities, emphasis on creative problem solving: this is hard because often times the best solution to a problem is on your character sheet, or at the very least involves leveraging existing rules. Cantrips, first level spells, and racial abilities take care of most of your food, water, and light needs; keeping track of those is a hallmark of classic play. Encumbrance limits are extremely generous. An osr game like knave emphasizes randomly selected mundane equipment in order to spur creative use of items; this is less important in 5e, especially past level 3 or so.

Further, 5e is very skill-check heavy. Rereading the dmg yesterday, I noticed how many optional rules or procedures boil down to making 1 or 2 ability checks. And there are ways to get advantage and bonuses to those skill checks. In a large enough party, you can secure enough die rolls to succeed at most things.

Rulings not rules: 5e was obviously influenced by Finch's primer here. There are still quite a lot of rules in 5e though? But it is easy enough to handwave most things for a more fluid game. In 5e games turning to the rules usually happens when looking up spell descriptions. But what 5e lacks that earlier editions have are procedures, for example for dungeon crawling.

An open world, exploration based xp: this is up to dm style, but seems less popular than playing structured adventures. In terms of xp, the main systems are either xp for combat (leading to combat as sport challenges) or milestone (for structured adventures), so not so much.

DIY attitude: honestly, alive and well! Yes, lots of people play wotc adventure paths, but they also produce loads of DM's guild content to fix...erm, expand those adventures.

You can use a bunch of optional and house rules to mitigate some of the above, but I'm not sure it's worth it. That being said, my house rules to make 5e to be old school would involve: unconscious at 0 hp, death at -10; finite cantrip usage; spend HD to recover hp on long rest (or other slow healing rule); no or less darkvision; slot based encumbrance.
 

Voadam

Legend
I guess this question is primarily directed at people who consider 5th edition to be a system that works reasonably well enough for a more old-school style campaign. What exactly is it about the mechanics that has a certain old-school ring to it, or makes it suitable to be used for such a purpose?
As a DM I feel I can run 5e the way I ran B1 In Search of the Unknown, 1e Greyhawk, and the way I ran 2e Ravenloft, with an emphasis on first person immersion and roleplay where skilled play or actual play takes precedence over character sheet mechanics.

The explicit guidelines that DMs can call for rolls, or not, to resolve things means that I can run more first person social interactions by the book RAW without using mechanics, and that if I do go with mechanics thanks to bounded accuracy and the proficiency system it won't be the feast or famine that could occur in 3e/d20 skill check rolls based on character build and system mastery.

I can do skilled play challenges and get the level of description and interaction that I want, not something driven by mechanics on the sheet.

5e has a lot of vagueness and ambiguity and options in how to run it RAW so it accommodates a lot of styles, including most things considered old school.

I like that it is not +X per level equipment driven to match expected combat numbers.

For mechanically simple fighters go with the mechanically strong and straightforward Champion subclass, not the battlemaster subclass.

I like milestone leveling up so that I set the pace.

I like that with bounded accuracy lower CR monsters can still be relevant in combat and sandboxing is more achievable without threats having to be from within a narrow CR band to work well.
 
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