D&D 5E How Old-School is 5th Edition? Can it even do Old-School?

[teitan]

I can't think of anything more antithetical to old school play than milestone leveling. Even the alternative you suggest misses the point. XP for recovered gold does the thing it is supposed to: focus play on results (recovering that treasure) not process (killing monsters). The XP is hidden behind a secret door, or trapped, or in the monster's lair. How are you bunch of crazy fools going to not only get it, but get it out and back to town safely?

Good for you man. That's great, but the default in 5e is much to quick, so milestone is a more efficient way to emulate old school without house ruling in the old XP charts and at that point, just buy the 1e books off DM's Guild.

 

[S'mon]

I can't think of anything more antithetical to old school play than milestone leveling.

I agree, and I find the 5e XP system works ok for slow advancement anyway. The trick is to use mostly low-challenge monsters and a more status quo approach to the environment. 5e PCs only advance quickly if they are fed a string of level appropriate combats. If they have to carefully pick fights, run away, and fight hordes of low xp creatures, advancement rate is slowed. Using individual XP, PCs only earn XP if present, and new PCs come in at a lower level slows things, too.

In my Faerun Adventures game using 5e RAW XP the most successful PCs have levelled up from 1-7 in 16 months of play, playing about 3 hours/week on average (currently 6 hours/fortnight, previously short 3 hour weekly sessions). One PC is nearing 8th level after last session he accidentally solo'd an encounter meant for a full party. Edit: A full level 9 party.

 

[Yora]

But do you want to always run big encounters with large numbers of enemies, that take correspondingly longer just to reduce XP? Surely there are easier ways than this.

And milestone XP can absolutely be about reaults rather than process. That's what the whole idea seems to be all about. You just have to select the things that make up the milestones and the amount of XP accordingly. Returning with a treasure haul can be a milestone. And you can even adjust the XP award precisely to the gp value instead of one of the generic amounts.

 

[S'mon]

But do you want to always run big encounters with large numbers of enemies, that take correspondingly longer just to reduce XP? Surely there are easier ways than this.

Big encounters with large numbers of enemies are certainly old school - until 3e they were routine. I run in a pretty organic/naturalistic way, sure the PCs might come across small/weak foes, but enemies who stand & fight do so because they think they can win. The PCs do occasionally fight a dragon or other high challenge opponent of course. In those cases typically either the dragon has allies or terrain advantages.

Milestones put all the power & responsibility for advancement in the hands of the GM, they also mean you can't have PCs with variable XP totals advancing differently. I don't like them even for a 'new school' game, and definitely not for old school sandboxing.

Edit: I have not found combat length in 5e to be a problem BTW, all my players seem happy. Edit 2: My player groups are 7-8 PCs so combat is fairly lengthy anyway.

 

[Nefermandias]

But do you want to always run big encounters with large numbers of enemies, that take correspondingly longer just to reduce XP? Surely there are easier ways than this.

And milestone XP can absolutely be about reaults rather than process. That's what the whole idea seems to be all about. You just have to select the things that make up the milestones and the amount of XP accordingly. Returning with a treasure haul can be a milestone. And you can even adjust the XP award precisely to the gp value instead of one of the generic amounts.

That's absolutely right. The problem is that people on the internet doesn't seem to know the difference between Milestone Experience and Advancement Without XP. They are both very different and mutually exclusive options in the DMG.

 

[S'mon]

And milestone XP can absolutely be about reaults rather than process. That's what the whole idea seems to be all about. You just have to select the things that make up the milestones and the amount of XP accordingly. Returning with a treasure haul can be a milestone. And you can even adjust the XP award precisely to the gp value instead of one of the generic amounts.

You seem to be talking here about using the XP system, not milestone levelling? Yes the GM can certainly adjust how & when XP is awarded. I definitely give out XP for goal achievements, including obtaining treasure where that is the goal, or rescuing prisoners, or exploration. I have an XP chart I use for non-combat achievements which gives good results for me.

Edit: I use the standard 5e XP awards for combat XP level 1-10 as I find they do not give over-fast advancement. For my Faerun sandbox I plan to halve awards level 11-20 though.

 

[Nefermandias]

You seem to be talking here about using the XP system, not milestone levelling? Yes the GM can certainly adjust how & when XP is awarded. I definitely give out XP for goal achievements, including obtaining treasure where that is the goal, or rescuing prisoners, or exploration. I have an XP chart I use for non-combat achievements which gives good results for me.

Edit: I use the standard 5e XP awards for combat XP level 1-10 as I find they do not give over-fast advancement. For my Faerun sandbox I plan to halve awards level 11-20 though.

No. He's talking about milestones. Milestones is a system where you award XP for certain tasks (collecting gold pieces is a perfectly valid target for milestone XP). You are the one getting confused by another optional rule called "Advancement Without XP" They are both in the DMG.

 

[S'mon]

Here's one version of my non-combat awards chart. Note these awards are in addition to standard monster xp awards. Obtaining a Tier 1 treasure hoard without combat might be a Tier 1 moderate award, 50 XP per PC.

Low Level (Tier 1) XP awards (per PC)

Easy Achievement: 10 XP (Challenge 0)
Minor Achievement: 25 XP (Challenge 1/8)
Moderate Achievement: 50 XP (Challenge 1/4)
Major Achievement: 100 XP (Challenge 1/2)
Very Hard Achievement: 200 XP (Challenge 1)
Exceptional Achievement: 450 XP (Challenge 2)

Mid Level (Tier 2) XP awards (per PC)
Easy 50 XP (Challenge 1/4)
Minor 100 XP (Challenge 1/2)
Moderate 200 XP (Challenge 1)
Major 450 XP (Challenge 2)
Very Hard 700 XP (Challenge 3)
Exceptional 1100 XP (Challenge 4)

High Level (Tier 3) XP awards (per PC)
Easy 200 XP (Challenge 1)
Minor 450 XP (Challenge 2)
Moderate 700 XP (Challenge 3)
Major 1100 XP (Challenge 4)
Very Hard 1800 XP (Challenge 5)
Exceptional 2300 XP (Challenge 6)

Epic Level (Tier 4) XP awards (per PC)
Easy 700 XP (Challenge 3)
Minor 1100 XP (Challenge 4)
Moderate 1800 XP (Challenge 5)
Major 2300 XP (Challenge 6)
Very Hard 2900 XP (Challenge 7)
Exceptional 5000 XP (Challenge 8)

XP awards tend to increase over time, as the scale of achievements increase.
Acquiring significant Treasure is usually worth some XP, as is rescuing prisoners, infiltrating a guarded keep, exploring a cavern network, etc. A typical major session award for non-combat achievements might be 25 XP per PC at level 1, rising to ca 100 XP per PC at level 4.

 

[S'mon]

No. He's talking about milestones. Milestones is a system where you award XP for certain tasks (collecting gold pieces is a perfectly valid target for milestone XP). You are the one getting confused by another optional rule called "Advancement Without XP" They are both in the DMG.

Apologies - as you know, most people on the Internet use 'Milestone levelling' to mean ad hoc levelling when the GM says so - "level when you reach a Milestone", Story Based Advancement per page 261 of DMG.

 

[Yora]

You can also award XP when characters complete significant milestones. When preparing your adventure, designate certain events or challenges as milestones, as with the following examples:

• Accomplishing one in a series of goals necessary to complete the adventure.
• Discovering a hidden location or piece of information relevant to the adventure.
• Reaching an important destination.

The DMG of course assumes adventures to be scripted stories, because anything else is forgotten esoteric lore found only in occult ancient tomes. But it works just as well with fixed pre-established achievements that the players can pursue on their own initiative.