How powerful are my PCs?

[drothgery]

Hmm...

My current game has four 14th/15th level Eberron characters, all of who had DMG wealth when created (except the VoP guy), including my new PC (as my follower of the Flame died heroicly in combat a few weeks ago). I'm not sure exactly where theys stand relative to DMG wealth; it feels like my new guy has more stuff, but it may be that he's just got fewer, better items and less cash on hand. Stats were best of 3 sets of 4d6 drop lowest rolls.

So while as individual characters, yours are probbably more powerful, I think having a fourth, combined with a higher average level, probably makes it a wash. We're higher level, but you've got 5 PCs, and a lot more specials going on, so your guys are stronger. Not overwhelmingly, though, I think.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Yeah... compared to the characters in my game, yours are just hell on wheels, nothing less...

 

[Nightfall]

Eh they might be a tad more powerful in some ways (equipment wise) than my PCs but stats wise I think I can out-max yours considering I use one of two methods: 45 point buy or a 6d6 drop the lowest ones, re roll 1s and 2s. (also reroll HPs for 1s and 2s.)

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

They're powerful compared to RAW, but breaking it down on a per level basis they look about on par with the PCs of my players, perhaps slightly lower due to extensive system modifications.

I generally only run 28-32 point buy, but on the other end I give a feat a level and the PC races and classes are significantly more powerful than standard. For comparison using UK's CR and ECL system and using CR as a basis of comparison. The Standard PHB classes with PC wealth are range from 1.09-1.32 CR per level. My classes inhabit a range from 1.73-1.91 CR per level with PC wealth and my PC races are balanced against them. They start unclassed usually with 3 racial hd at level 3 and are CR 3 with relation to my modified system. But if converted back and thrown into a standard 3.5e game an unclassed starting character butt naked and unarmed would be about CR4.5-4.8 as an individual.

(but using my demographics this is also the average adult peasant, its adding the PC levels on top where most peasants never add more than one or two commoner levels in their lifetime that keeps their power going up.)

 

[shilsen]

I've been playing 3.0/3.5e D&D a good long while, especially appreciating the mechanics ends of things, and I would peg your PCs at approximately 2 LA above where they would normally be at. Its a moderately strong +2 I'd say, but it would balance out to a straight +2 by the time they got to higher levels (when +4 enhancement ability bonuses, etc... wouldn't be the highest bonuses they could get). The metamagic change with so many spellcasters throws off their CR if they simply fought 1-2 encounters a day though, so I might be inclined to freely throw either creatures with a good amount of SR or 3 or 4 CR above their (LA not included) level regularly, or even 5 comfortably (which would normally be TPK-ish sounding) if its the only encounter in a day.

That said, the versatility of so many spellcasters might truly trump encounters with creatures that can't kill them immediately. I'm curious as to your experiences with this group as a campaign with multiple spellcasters intrigues me.

Since the campaign is very heavily anti-dungeon crawling, the PCs usually have only 1 encounter in a given game day, sometimes two, and only very rarely three (IIRC, in 56 sessions, they've had 2 or maybe 3 sessions with three fights in a day). Most of the time, their fights are anywhere from PC level - 1 to PC level + 1, so they should be fights that they (esp. considering power level and there being 5 PCs) should win pretty handily. But thus far I've managed to challenge them a lot, with PCs being beaten down badly almost every fight. Until they hit 8th lvl or so, I literally never used a PrC on an NPC and very rarely used non-core material, and it was never an issue challenging them. Without the swashbuckling card rule for saving PCs, we'd actually have had one PC death every two sessions. The campaign actually works out perfectly for me, since I prefer running enemies and encounters that should be an easy win for the PCs and make it challenging through use of tactics, circumstances, etc. One of the things I discovered is that using classed or advanced creatures is the way to go, since a little judicious thinking lets them punch much above their supposed weight.

All in all, I'd give it a "Holy crap! Are there any orcs left in your world?"

Funnily enough, what gives my PCs the most trouble are the little guys. Halflings, goblins, etc. There's a standing joke that it's transference on my part (I'm 5 ft 4 inches) and they joke that while they are happy handling dragons and giants, the short ones are really scary. The entire group (at 8th lvl) once all got taken down by an equal number of underequipped goblinoids (CR 6 each). And they absolutely refuse to go up against a gnome, since that would be suicide

 

[shilsen]

One to one your guys certainly have more in terms of extra stuff than my characters at an equivalent level (they usually have ~ standard wealth, though that varies wildly from way low to a bit high because I tend to put treasure in big stockpiles after relative droughts) but I'm actually fairly certain that the Iajutsu Master in my game, for instance, would kill one of your characters before the character could take a turn if you started them five feet from each other and just rolled initiative. The Swashbuckling card that puts you instantly to pull health might be an issue, though, if they drew that--that's a huge one. I don't know the HP and AC on your guys, but I'm guessing the Iajutsu Master could manage even then (he does TONS of damage if he goes first and then sucks for the rest of the fight, and he always goes first).

Hah! That sounds just like the Iajitsu Master who was in one game I'm in (Burne's Story Hour, in my sig). He would pull out one awesome shot and then be putting out some 10 pts a hit at 9th lvl.

Without buffs, since they're mostly auto-buffed with the permanent abilities I gave them (a significant reason for doing so, since I didn't want to bother tracking the changes all the time), the PCs are around AC 29-30, and a decent Iajitsu Master should hit that fairly easily. All except the alienist have 100+ hp, however (he's clocking in at 86, which is pretty good for a 12th lvl mage; he hasn't made 13th yet), and the shifter druid is at 148 hp walking around and 174 hp when she's shifting and in wildshape. One-shotting that takes some doing.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hah! That sounds just like the Iajitsu Master who was in one game I'm in (Burne's Story Hour, in my sig). He would pull out one awesome shot and then be putting out some 10 pts a hit at 9th lvl.

Without buffs, since they're mostly auto-buffed with the permanent abilities I gave them (a significant reason for doing so, since I didn't want to bother tracking the changes all the time), the PCs are around AC 29-30, and a decent Iajitsu Master should hit that fairly easily. All except the alienist have 100+ hp, however (he's clocking in at 86, which is pretty good for a 12th lvl mage; he hasn't made 13th yet), and the shifter druid is at 148 hp walking around and 174 hp when she's shifting and in wildshape. One-shotting that takes some doing.

Hmmm...he probably couldn't kill the whole party at once if he started in melee range, but almost (With 28 Charisma and good rolls on Iajutsu Focus, He can do I believe 9d6+81 bonus damage on a Whirlwind attack, which lets him hit for a total of ~140). And yeah, for the rest of the fight, he hits for like 20 damage a pop at most.

 

[el-remmen]

What's the stat draft method?

Here is the thread where I first brought it up and hashed it out.

Here is more succinct explanation of it on my wiki.

And, Here is an overview of the actual draft I ran for my "Second Son of a Second Son" campaign.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Skill pts: All classes get 2 extra skill pts every level (8 at 1st level). All characters get to pick one class to be a permanent class skill, whatever classes they have or are leveling in.

And so ends the reason to play a rogue class...

Equipment: I generally keep the PCs a little to a lot higher on the equipment scale.

No. Let's be very blunt on this one: You are on the "a LOT" higher scale.

At this point, going up to 13th level, the PCs have the following permanent enhancements on each of them (NOT in items):

+4 enhancement bonus to all six stats, +4 resistance bonus to saves, +4 enhancement bonus to natural armor, +3 deflection bonus to AC, fast healing 1 (which only kicks in 1 minute after they take damage, so effectively no healing needed between fights if they have enough time). That, ignoring the fast healing and the slotless nature of the enhancements on them, clocks in at 130,000 gp.

OK. This, imo, is where it gets silly. Those are epic level enhancements. You get the Monty Haul award there - but I think you already knew that.

Each character also has at least one special item, including things like:

* For the wizard/alienist: (1) A necklace that gives him access to every PHB spell of a level that he can cast, with no need for scribing, and (2) a ring that provides the following (3/day, allows spontaneous application of a metamagic feat to a spell up to 3rd lvl; 1/day, it allows spontaneous application of a metamagic feat to a spell up to 6th lvl. The application creates no increase in casting time and the spell still uses the same slot. The metamagic feat must be one of the following: Empower, Energy Substitution (Acid), Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Silent Spell. The ring also allows the use of the spells Detect Magic, Prestidigitation and Unseen Servant each 3/day, and provides a +5 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks.)

* For the cleric/paladin/exorcist of the silver flame: An intelligent +1 Holy Ghost Touch Greatsword which can cast Swift Fly on him 2/day and can turn into any weapon at will

* For the druid/hexer: (1) A +1 Keen Shock Starmetal Jovar (exotic greatsword doing 2d6/18-20), which allows use of Whirling Blade 2/day, and (2) an amulet that gives him a +5 to Concentration and Intimidate, as well as allowing him to activate the Roots of the Mountain stance (from Book of Nine Swords) once per encounter as a swift action.

So, what do you think about the power level of the PCs here? And exactly how Monty Haul am I ?

After detailing the above... You already know the answer to that - don't you?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Nice to meet you, Monty!