The Sophist
First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
I don't think TLG is claiming that C&C is going to replace 3.5 D&D in the market.
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
How Quickly is C&C Catching on?
- Thread starter Mythmere1
- Start date
I don't think TLG is claiming that C&C is going to replace 3.5 D&D in the market.
cleaverthepit
First Post
I occasionally feel a wee bit uncomfortable posting about our products outside the publishers forum. But, I -f-e-e-l-c-o-m-p-e-l-l-e-d!!! (I just watched the whole of the new Battlestar Galactica series, sorta cool)
First, I want to dispel a few things that continue to haunt C&C:
1. There are no level limits for any class/race combination
2. Races are not restricted to particular classes or from classes
3. AC is positive
4. Ability modifier progression begins at 13 (13-15 = +1, 16-17 = +2, 18-19 = +3)
5. A torch casts a 40ft ball of macabre light that brings forth dancing shadows and colors everything else in eerie hues of red and orange.
6: There are 13 classes including bard and assassin
hmmm and no speed factors, weapons vs armor type tables, percentile rolls....
I think that covers some issues that continue to arise.
Now on to more general subjects.
Rules lite vs rules heavy. There are two aspects to this. The first concerns the sheer number of rules and second the complexity of those rules. I think on the number of rules C&C hits about a 4 (on a 1 to 10 with one being tic-tac-toe and 10 being, well something played at the Command General Staff College and 3.5 being about a 6). This is, of course, up for debate but, I am just trying to make a point not create a law of game complexity measurement. As for complexity, I would give C&C a 3.5 and D&D3.5 a 6.5 (ditto previous comment).
Which one prefers to play is entirely based upon taste. I like my spinach raw, my wife likes it boiled or something. I will point out though, both my wife and I start out with raw spinach. I can't unboil it.
Which plays to the issue of modification. I think, or am of the opinion, that it is easier to add to a simple system than to subtract from a complex system. It is not impossible. And, considering both the level of intelligence and education of many games (not to mention the unnatural predisposition many have to crunching numbers), even complex systems can be altered with a little dedication, experimentation and persistence. That said, the same can be applied to a simple system and one would find it both easier and quicker. In this respect, C&C has a modification/tinkering quotient that is very high.
The game was, in fact, designed with this in mind. It was intended to bridge the various editions of The Game and find those elements which underlie all its various manifestations. Further, we know (being gamers) that most people who play RPGs enjoy tinkering and houseruling. No two games are run in the same manner. (Though I do find more consistency in 3.5 games than I ever did in 1e games - but then, our nation seems to moving to the right
). we want, encourage and desire the players to tinker, develop, change, augment and manipulate C&C. Make it your game. I think we have supplied the tools so that one who feels so inclined can manage this.
This does not mean that C&C is little more than a canvas upon which the players must place the final strokes. It is a viable and complete game system within itself. It never need be augmented or changed. It is a perfectly workable system and stands alone by itself without reference to any other game. For a person just beginning the often time consuming hobby of RPGing, no knowledge of any other game system need be had to understand and enjoy playing it (well, some people take to gaming, others don't).
Its nostalgic value is only meaningful to a certain subset of gamers. For them, Castles & Crusades does indeed harken to and recalls a type of gaming that one rarely encounters today or, at least, one I rarely encounter (and yes, I meet about 1000+ gamers a year now). I suspect its nostalgic value has less to do with the rules themselves than with the nature of the 'rules set.' We have introduced primary and secondary attributes -- which did not exist, the SIEGE engine -- which did not exist and other rules that have reference to all editions of the game but are not parcel with them. They are extrapolations of The Games principles rather than redefinitions of it. (In the old days these last two sentences would have been a great footnote.)
To get back on track. The nostalgic nature of the game references a time when the game was designed outside of reference to its own mythos or its own internally generated literature and needs. This is why 'old schoolers' often react negatively to mohawk wearing tabooed halflings casting powerful magics or waylaying into hordes of goblins like Conan. It because the halfling is JRR Tolkein's Hobbits and, I really don't imagine Tolkein envisioned his hobbits like mini-Conans. However, the games logic and mythos resulted in this. Which is fine. We have chosen to move away from this as much as possible. Of course, we could not so this in all cases, but we tried.
Further, the nostalgic nature of the project appeals to a system where there are not rules that cover every aspect of the game - or as many as are now covered. It is a fluid and open game. One where doors are opened unto rooms the contents of which are yours to fill. This is how I felt when I first started gaming and I think, from talks with others who gamed back in those days before Iran became known to us, it’s the way many others felt.
Are we gearing the game as a nostalgic piece. A reckoning and remembrance perhaps? A Classic Coke? Are we preying upon the current nostalgia for nostalgia? No, not really. We did release the Nostalgia Edition of C&C. But this was not released into distribution. It was only available through us. It was imperfect but workable none-the-less. It was essentially made for and a thank you to those who helped us create the system. Many are old schoolers. Many, including myself, have fond memories of the Brown Box (the lingerie edition can not be beat). That was a nod and a thank you.
We also name the game Castles & Crusades after Gary's original gaming society - or that early Lake Geneva gaming group. This is a nod and thank you to that group. For those of you who know us, you know we know Gary. We consider Gary one of our best of friends and have great respect for what he has done for gaming. It is a nod of recognition. A thank you if you will.
But this is really only meaningful to those in the gaming loop, not to those outside it. It is from these 'old schoolers,' (both yound and old) that we have drawn our greatest inspiration and whose support has encouraged us to continue forging ahead. But, though the game appeals to this often unruly, cantankerous, opinionated crowd, it is not geared only for them.
Its ease of play, ease of learning, ease of use, ease of manipulation can have broad appeal. Its low price point allows for ease of entry. Its appeal, I am certain, will grow with time. And I am willing to wait.
That is the end of essay #1
next up - monsters and a cup of coffee.
davis chenault
First, I want to dispel a few things that continue to haunt C&C:
1. There are no level limits for any class/race combination
2. Races are not restricted to particular classes or from classes
3. AC is positive
4. Ability modifier progression begins at 13 (13-15 = +1, 16-17 = +2, 18-19 = +3)
5. A torch casts a 40ft ball of macabre light that brings forth dancing shadows and colors everything else in eerie hues of red and orange.
6: There are 13 classes including bard and assassin
hmmm and no speed factors, weapons vs armor type tables, percentile rolls....
I think that covers some issues that continue to arise.
Now on to more general subjects.
Rules lite vs rules heavy. There are two aspects to this. The first concerns the sheer number of rules and second the complexity of those rules. I think on the number of rules C&C hits about a 4 (on a 1 to 10 with one being tic-tac-toe and 10 being, well something played at the Command General Staff College and 3.5 being about a 6). This is, of course, up for debate but, I am just trying to make a point not create a law of game complexity measurement. As for complexity, I would give C&C a 3.5 and D&D3.5 a 6.5 (ditto previous comment).
Which one prefers to play is entirely based upon taste. I like my spinach raw, my wife likes it boiled or something. I will point out though, both my wife and I start out with raw spinach. I can't unboil it.
Which plays to the issue of modification. I think, or am of the opinion, that it is easier to add to a simple system than to subtract from a complex system. It is not impossible. And, considering both the level of intelligence and education of many games (not to mention the unnatural predisposition many have to crunching numbers), even complex systems can be altered with a little dedication, experimentation and persistence. That said, the same can be applied to a simple system and one would find it both easier and quicker. In this respect, C&C has a modification/tinkering quotient that is very high.
The game was, in fact, designed with this in mind. It was intended to bridge the various editions of The Game and find those elements which underlie all its various manifestations. Further, we know (being gamers) that most people who play RPGs enjoy tinkering and houseruling. No two games are run in the same manner. (Though I do find more consistency in 3.5 games than I ever did in 1e games - but then, our nation seems to moving to the right
). we want, encourage and desire the players to tinker, develop, change, augment and manipulate C&C. Make it your game. I think we have supplied the tools so that one who feels so inclined can manage this.This does not mean that C&C is little more than a canvas upon which the players must place the final strokes. It is a viable and complete game system within itself. It never need be augmented or changed. It is a perfectly workable system and stands alone by itself without reference to any other game. For a person just beginning the often time consuming hobby of RPGing, no knowledge of any other game system need be had to understand and enjoy playing it (well, some people take to gaming, others don't).
Its nostalgic value is only meaningful to a certain subset of gamers. For them, Castles & Crusades does indeed harken to and recalls a type of gaming that one rarely encounters today or, at least, one I rarely encounter (and yes, I meet about 1000+ gamers a year now). I suspect its nostalgic value has less to do with the rules themselves than with the nature of the 'rules set.' We have introduced primary and secondary attributes -- which did not exist, the SIEGE engine -- which did not exist and other rules that have reference to all editions of the game but are not parcel with them. They are extrapolations of The Games principles rather than redefinitions of it. (In the old days these last two sentences would have been a great footnote.)
To get back on track. The nostalgic nature of the game references a time when the game was designed outside of reference to its own mythos or its own internally generated literature and needs. This is why 'old schoolers' often react negatively to mohawk wearing tabooed halflings casting powerful magics or waylaying into hordes of goblins like Conan. It because the halfling is JRR Tolkein's Hobbits and, I really don't imagine Tolkein envisioned his hobbits like mini-Conans. However, the games logic and mythos resulted in this. Which is fine. We have chosen to move away from this as much as possible. Of course, we could not so this in all cases, but we tried.
Further, the nostalgic nature of the project appeals to a system where there are not rules that cover every aspect of the game - or as many as are now covered. It is a fluid and open game. One where doors are opened unto rooms the contents of which are yours to fill. This is how I felt when I first started gaming and I think, from talks with others who gamed back in those days before Iran became known to us, it’s the way many others felt.
Are we gearing the game as a nostalgic piece. A reckoning and remembrance perhaps? A Classic Coke? Are we preying upon the current nostalgia for nostalgia? No, not really. We did release the Nostalgia Edition of C&C. But this was not released into distribution. It was only available through us. It was imperfect but workable none-the-less. It was essentially made for and a thank you to those who helped us create the system. Many are old schoolers. Many, including myself, have fond memories of the Brown Box (the lingerie edition can not be beat). That was a nod and a thank you.
We also name the game Castles & Crusades after Gary's original gaming society - or that early Lake Geneva gaming group. This is a nod and thank you to that group. For those of you who know us, you know we know Gary. We consider Gary one of our best of friends and have great respect for what he has done for gaming. It is a nod of recognition. A thank you if you will.
But this is really only meaningful to those in the gaming loop, not to those outside it. It is from these 'old schoolers,' (both yound and old) that we have drawn our greatest inspiration and whose support has encouraged us to continue forging ahead. But, though the game appeals to this often unruly, cantankerous, opinionated crowd, it is not geared only for them.
Its ease of play, ease of learning, ease of use, ease of manipulation can have broad appeal. Its low price point allows for ease of entry. Its appeal, I am certain, will grow with time. And I am willing to wait.
That is the end of essay #1
next up - monsters and a cup of coffee.
davis chenault
Jackal42
First Post
Ok that one works.
First off we have polymorph from the 3.5 SRD:
Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component: An empty cocoon.
And here is the C&C version:
Polymorph: This spell has two versions, polymorph self or polymorph other.
Polymorph Self: The caster takes the form of another creature. The new form can range in size from as small as a hummingbird to a size up to twice the caster's normal height. The caster can change his or her form as often as desired during the spell's duration. Each transformation takes one round.
The polymorphed character acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature polymorphed into while retaining his or her own mind. Physical and natural abilities include natural size, armor, natural weapons, and similar physical qualities. A body with extra limbs does not allow a character to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. Natural abilities also include mundane movement capabilities, but not magical flight and other magical forms of travel. Other nonmagical abilities, such as vision, are considered natural abilities. The caster does not gain the spell-like abilities of the new form. The character does not gain the supernatural abilities or the extraordinary abilities of the new creature.
The character can freely designate the new form's minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal rangers for a creature of that type. The new form's significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under the character's control, but must fall within the norms for the new form's species. The character can be changed into a member of his or her own species.
The caster retains his mental abilities, prime attribute designations, level and class, hit points, alignment, and base to hit bonus. New strength, dexterity, and constitution scores may affect final attack bonuses. The character retains his or her own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities. The character can cast spells, but needs a humanlike voice for verbal components and humanlike hands for somatic components.
When the polymorph occurs, the caster's equipment, if any, transforms to match the new form. If the new form is a creature that does not use equipment, the equipment melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. Components and foci melded in this way cannot be used to cast spells. If the new form uses equipment, the caster's equipment changes to match the new form and retains its properties. Incorporeal or gaseous forms cannot be assumed.
Upon changing, the character regains 1d4 hit points. If slain, the character reverts to his or her original form, but remains dead.
CT 1, D 10min/lvl, Comp V.
Polymorph Other: The caster causes another creature to assume the body, abilities and potentially the consciousness of another form of another creature. An unwilling target gets a Wis save to resist the spell. Additionally, a creature polymorphed into the form of another risks assuming the consciousness of the new form. For every 12 hours spent in the new form, the creature must succeed at a Wis save or become a member of the species in question in both form and consciousness, forgetting everything associated with the prior form, including friends, family, experiences, and training. If the magic is dispelled, any creature surviving the reverse transformation regains its former memories and personality.
In all other regards, this spell acts like polymorph self. Size can be no larger than twice the creature's normal height. The caster retains control over minor physical qualities and significant physical qualities Upon changing, the creature regains 1d4 hit points. If slain, the creature reverts to his or her original form, but remains dead. CT 1, R 50 ft, T one creature, D permanent, Sv Wis negates (h), SR yes, Comp V, S, M (butterfly wings).
So you actually picked one that is longer and more detailed but, in this case, I like the more detailed version as it answeres questions the 3.5 version does not. Of course, the fact that it's more like the 2e version of polymorph is also nice for me. In any case, generally speaking, spells in C&C are shorter than their 3e counterparts but this is one of the exceptions. Of course, also keep in mind that this spell is also two spells from 3e.
First off we have polymorph from the 3.5 SRD:
Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.
Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.
Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
Material Component: An empty cocoon.
And here is the C&C version:
Polymorph: This spell has two versions, polymorph self or polymorph other.
Polymorph Self: The caster takes the form of another creature. The new form can range in size from as small as a hummingbird to a size up to twice the caster's normal height. The caster can change his or her form as often as desired during the spell's duration. Each transformation takes one round.
The polymorphed character acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature polymorphed into while retaining his or her own mind. Physical and natural abilities include natural size, armor, natural weapons, and similar physical qualities. A body with extra limbs does not allow a character to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. Natural abilities also include mundane movement capabilities, but not magical flight and other magical forms of travel. Other nonmagical abilities, such as vision, are considered natural abilities. The caster does not gain the spell-like abilities of the new form. The character does not gain the supernatural abilities or the extraordinary abilities of the new creature.
The character can freely designate the new form's minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal rangers for a creature of that type. The new form's significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under the character's control, but must fall within the norms for the new form's species. The character can be changed into a member of his or her own species.
The caster retains his mental abilities, prime attribute designations, level and class, hit points, alignment, and base to hit bonus. New strength, dexterity, and constitution scores may affect final attack bonuses. The character retains his or her own type, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities. The character can cast spells, but needs a humanlike voice for verbal components and humanlike hands for somatic components.
When the polymorph occurs, the caster's equipment, if any, transforms to match the new form. If the new form is a creature that does not use equipment, the equipment melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. Components and foci melded in this way cannot be used to cast spells. If the new form uses equipment, the caster's equipment changes to match the new form and retains its properties. Incorporeal or gaseous forms cannot be assumed.
Upon changing, the character regains 1d4 hit points. If slain, the character reverts to his or her original form, but remains dead.
CT 1, D 10min/lvl, Comp V.
Polymorph Other: The caster causes another creature to assume the body, abilities and potentially the consciousness of another form of another creature. An unwilling target gets a Wis save to resist the spell. Additionally, a creature polymorphed into the form of another risks assuming the consciousness of the new form. For every 12 hours spent in the new form, the creature must succeed at a Wis save or become a member of the species in question in both form and consciousness, forgetting everything associated with the prior form, including friends, family, experiences, and training. If the magic is dispelled, any creature surviving the reverse transformation regains its former memories and personality.
In all other regards, this spell acts like polymorph self. Size can be no larger than twice the creature's normal height. The caster retains control over minor physical qualities and significant physical qualities Upon changing, the creature regains 1d4 hit points. If slain, the creature reverts to his or her original form, but remains dead. CT 1, R 50 ft, T one creature, D permanent, Sv Wis negates (h), SR yes, Comp V, S, M (butterfly wings).
So you actually picked one that is longer and more detailed but, in this case, I like the more detailed version as it answeres questions the 3.5 version does not. Of course, the fact that it's more like the 2e version of polymorph is also nice for me. In any case, generally speaking, spells in C&C are shorter than their 3e counterparts but this is one of the exceptions. Of course, also keep in mind that this spell is also two spells from 3e.
Last edited:
scadgrad
First Post
Acid_crash said:For those using C&C and adding Feats to it, what feats are you primarily using and have you made any rule modifications to them?
My one other question regarding C&C, and this is something I have been confused on, is how is multiclassing done? It's the one thing I do really like about d20 is how easy multiclassing is and how each class uses the same xp chart...gain 1000, gain a level and choose the class you want... but with each class getting different xp charts, it seems that multiclassing in this way would be more difficult.
Other than that, this game looks pretty damn cool. I like how they took away spellcasting from Paladins, Rangers and Bards, and put in a Assassin as a core class. Now, all I would need to do is add in the new classes from Black Company (like Noble, Jack of all Trades, and Acadimecian and Scout) and run BC using C&C.
The other thing that has me excited is that they are releasing their own Unearthed Arcana version right off the bat with the Castle Keeper Guide...a fully optional rules book to use with C&C, and hopefully a good spellpoint system to get rid of fire and forget magic.
I wonder how using the BC magic system would port to C&C.
We're using feats drawn primarily from the PHB and the Complete_________ series and yes, they do occasionally require modification. For example, Improved Initiative gives PCs a +2 rather than a +4 due to the d10 that C&C uses for initiative. Since C&C doesn't add dex to initiative the +2 comes in quite handy and is a popular feat (which is is in 3.X already). Dodge is also a popular feat (in both 3.X editions and my C&C games) and we just use a flat +1 to your AC which seems suitably rules lite. Some feats, those that depend on AoO like Mobility for example, don't work as well or just don't apply at all. I've removed them from their respective feat chains for those who are pursuing say Whirlwind attack.
Multiclassing is still having the kinks worked out. It will appear in the CKG and as a PDF download from the Trolls in the coming days. The current system, or what we have left over from the playtest document, is similar to 1st ed. The resulting characters are a bit more "juiced" than their single class counterparts, but I'm confident that the Trolls and the members of the C&C Society will come up with a fix very soon.
Great idea on the Black Company, I've been looking forward to that relase myself. I haven't picked it up yet, but I feel confident that I can cobble a C&C version together w/ very little effort.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
cleaverthepit said:
Woot.
Woot.
Woot.
Not woot. This is hardly better than in 2e.
When I first heard about C&C, it was in a playtest thread. I recalled at the time that bonuses did not start until 15, but I believed things had gotten better because of the playtest (eg bonuses starting until 13).
However, these kinds of bonuses mean players are required to have quite high stats to be good at things. Why the higher ceiling?
Desdichado
Hero
Neither do I, so your post is pretty much a non sequiter. I think there's an implication amongst many of its fans, though, that it's going to take a lot of D&D players and turn them into C&C players instead.The Sophist said:I don't think TLG is claiming that C&C is going to replace 3.5 D&D in the market.
Henry
Autoexreginated
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
From another outside perspective (don't have the rules yet), this is ten times better than 1E and 2E. In fact, this is the progression from the Basic D&D (Holmes/Moldvay/Cook) sets. What it means is that bonuses are not common, but they are not rarefied, either. In 1E, bonuses required 15 and up; when the most powerful generation method until 1985 was 4d6 drop lowest, this meant that most characters didn't have a single plus unless the DM was just handing out high scores. (Like the Unearthed Arcana method seemed to do - its method was basically roll 9d6, 8d6, 7d6, etc. down the line, and arrange according to class. Why not just tell the player they had an 18,17,16,15,14,13, and just do what they wished?)
With C&C, ability scores are lower, I'm GUESSING that hit points are lower (don't know for sure), AC's are lower, pretty much all numbers across the board are slightly lower than their 3E counterparts. Lower means not as much need for high stats.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Henry said:
I've only played 2e, not 1e or basic.
Have you ever played Alternity? I preferred it to 2e, and there were reasons for that. One was the ability score system. In Alternity, no matter what your ability score was, it was important. If you had a Dex of 10, this was different from having a Dex of 11, and was different from having a Dex of 12, and so forth, since even a single point affected your skills. (I'm not including damage or resistance modifiers... you needed two points to affect those.) You didn't need high stats at all (but, of course, they helped). Too bad Alternity didn't have a weighed point buy.
In 3e stats were given half the importance they were given in Alternity. Nonetheless having a low stat hurt, having a high stat helped, and you could get a decent stat mod without having to take a 16 or so. A stat difference of only 2 points contributes to skills, not to mention AC, saves, damage, etc.
In C&C they have 1/3rd the importance of Alternity stats. I don't think that's a good thing, and I certainly don't want to see an overabundance of 13s for no good reason. It also causes me to wonder how they balanced the races. If an elf with Con -2 takes a Con of 15, it drops to 13, giving no penalty whatsoever! Did elves take -3 Con?
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