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5E How should be the future Oriental Adventures.

tommybahama

Adventurer
I was curious about this and Googled around. Found a number of places that said that the 10% number is often cited, but comes from a non-scientific opinion poll, and that more rigorous research has shown it's really about 50%, shooting up to 2/3 among those who engage in traditional practices.
Okay, you got me to Google around and I found the 'more scientific' study you found. Their polling data was heavily skewed toward women and LGBTQ (69% of those polled so it is not representative of the population) which they stated had a stronger bias against the mascots than men. Still, only 49% of the poll found the mascots offensive. Also, I thought it was disingenuous to add an "indifferent" group to make the "offensive" group appear larger in their graph. I think we can conclude the opposition to the mascots is a minority and my suspicion that the opposition to the term Oriental among Asians is probably a minority as well. Surprisingly, I could not find a poll among Asians regarding the word.

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If Asians are saying oriental is a word they dislike. Because of racist connotations. Because of outdated concepts. Listen. And do not use it.
Do not simply decide this should be kept because of nostalgia. Do not simply decide this is okay because of perceived and biased opinions.
The world has progressed. Involve cultural consultants.
 

Orcslayer78

Explorer
I very much doubt it. Kamigawa block performed very poorly and the higher-ups would much rather sweep it under the rug and make a new setting to fill the same niche than revive it.
I understand, I've always hated the game itself, so I'm not a great expert of it, I just like the various settings.
 

If Asians are saying oriental is a word they dislike. Because of racist connotations. Because of outdated concepts. Listen. And do not use it.
Do not simply decide this should be kept because of nostalgia. Do not simply decide this is okay because of perceived and biased opinions.
The world has progressed. Involve cultural consultants.
Like a lot of other words, on its own, there is nothing wrong, but it is how people use those words, whether intentionally in a hateful way or unintentionally in a passive bigoted way, that makes the words no longer acceptable for general use when talking about other human beings.
 


Tonguez

Hero
WOTC keeps adding MAGIC the Gathering settings to D&D, so the next Oriental Adventure will be for sure Kamigawa, then people on DMGuild will use the rules and subclasses in Kamigawa to build stuff for Kara-Tur as well.
Tarkir was also a Magic setting and is a much much better setting for adaption to DnD (even with the timey-whimey bits)
 
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Orcslayer78

Explorer
Me too, although "hate" is too strong a word. I've always mehed the game, but love the settings.
No for me is literally hate, for personal reasons: my group was having so much fun with D&D (BECMI and AD&D 2e at the time) and then when Magic came out everyone went crazy for it, abandoning D&D.
Where there was cohoperation now there were challenges, where there was playing all together now there was many 1vs1, where there was inclusivity now people who didn't spend a fortune in cards was left out of the game.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Problem with Kamigawa block was it came after a high powered block in mirrordin and the pure awesome that was Ravnica block.

Kamigawa had 1 card worth money, most of the rest was eh.
 

cbwjm

I can add a custom title.
What we did for Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters was recruit cultural consultants to assist us with a variety of different cultural figures. I think this is essential, and if WotC were to make a book based on non-Western cultures they would need to do that (and I'm sure they would).
Wasn't there already some announcement that they were hiring some cultural consultants? I'm like 90% certain I saw something about that here or on Reddit.
 

I remember when Warner Bros wanted to ban Speedy Gonzalez because they thought now was politically correct and then Mexicans said they loved that character very much. We know Speedy Gonzales is a complete stereotype but that doesn't mean with racist intentions.

Avatar: the last airbender and Legend of Korra are examples of "western Wuxia" (or western xuanhuan). Has anybody complain about that?

I really worrry about Chinese censure, not only about undead and dead corpses in World of Warcraft, but even an innocent character as Winnie the Pooth is censored. Even current Chinese censorship starts to dislike fantasy with spiritual elements or stories set in the (pre-revolution) imperial age (I read about that in the Epoch Times time ago, I can't find the original source). And today China isn't the queen bee in the high-school (but this would be another thread and it's not to talk about here)

Sometimes accidentaly we can cause serious controversies. For example a story about somebody who proclaim himself as the prophet of the lengs (dragons), creating a new religion, and later a civil war. Most of people would understand really it's an allegory about Hong Xiuquang and the Taiping rebellion, but somebody later could notice really a hard satire against Martin Luther, John Calvin and the Protestan Reformation.

* Let's imagine there is a "Oriental" characters but with some negative traits, a cop or law agent who doesn't want to work. Somebody could say it's a racist stereotype but really the intention by the author (maybe with Asian origin) was a little homage to the comedy manga KochiKame.

* I guess we could see some "Oriental" civilitation without true links with any real country, for example with an alphabet like the Korean but too big empire to be an analogy of Korea.

* I have notice D&D is too "cosmopolitan" for speculative fiction with Asian roots. Most of Asian fantasy is human-centric, and only now some humanoid races start to appear in videogames.

* If psionic powers are added to the SRD, why not also the "wuxia/xuanhuan" elements?

* Could WotC to publish a 5th Ed of the races from "Play Manga d20" (at least with a licecing agremeent)?

Races 種族 – d20 Anime SRD

* Would be right the title: "Kara-Tur: adventures in eastern lands"?

* What races and classes should come back? would any PC race need any retcon? are too powerful the hengeyokai with the shapesifter traits?

* My opinion is there is a open door to reintroduce the "xuanhuan" PCs, like titles in DM Guilds, to know the feedback, and later a compliation of PC races, monsters and classes in a "Xuanhuan/Wulin player handbook".
 

Derren

Hero
Anti-inclusive content
If Asians are saying oriental is a word they dislike. Because of racist connotations. Because of outdated concepts. Listen. And do not use it.
Do not simply decide this should be kept because of nostalgia. Do not simply decide this is okay because of perceived and biased opinions.
The world has progressed. Involve cultural consultants.
And who are those "Asians"? From the news a couple of Asian Americans so, technically, not Asians.
Who is allowed to speak for a culture, or in this case large group of cultures?

This is really starting to look like a second satan panic with a small, vocal minority enforcing censorship.

Any member of a minority can speak up. You don’t get to tell people not to be offended, even if they’re not the majority of their minority.
 
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And who are those "Asians"? From the news a couple of Asian Americans so, technically, not Asians.
Who is allowed to speak for a culture, or in this case large group of cultures?

This is really starting to look like a second satan panic with a small, vocal minority enforcing censorship.
Presumably their families are Asian. So hence Asian. You do not get to decide who is Asian. You are not that authority. Any more on this is laughable. And irrelevant.

If the group is diverse then perhaps they can act as spokespeople. Interviews would be better. And petitions. But it would be a start.

More dialogue needs to happen.
 


Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
On the other hand, 90% of Native Americans respond in polls that they don't have a problem with Indian sports names but a vocal 10% are always trying to force their views onto the rest of society. I assume the same thing is going on here with the word Oriental.
Off-topic, but the polls showing that 90% of NA support the team's naming was commissioned by Sport's Illustrated (a pretty biased outlet) in 2002, and had some pretty flawed methodology.

California State University did a study that found 67% disapproved, and UC Berekeley did a study this year showing 49% of NA disapproved (38% were not bothered). The Berkeley study also showed that NA engaged in tribal activity, resided on tribal land, and were younger were far more likely to disapprove compared to those who simply identified as NA.

TLDR: The 90% study is thrown around a lot but is mostly bunk.
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
I want to point out, for folks who don't know, that there is already great D&D content by creators of Asian ancestry, like in the Unbreakable anthology...

Like, hire some of these folks and give them the budget to make an original fantasy world. Something vibrant and modern yet drawing on the old traditions and folklores. Something that is to 2020 what Avatar: The Last Airbender was to 2005, except with Asian creative leads all the way down to Asian creative staff.

I have a lot of names I could recommend from #RPGSEA, just to start with.

Check out Asians Represent! They have exciting Asian creators visiting every episode and they even did the work of a 26-hour video series full of guest experts to dissect OA and discuss it. And that's not on their paid time. Imagine if they got funding to do this in a really organised way.
I'm surprised we are still debating this when @Tun Kai Poh makes pretty much the perfect argument here.
 

Kobold Avenger

Adventurer
All this talk about theoretical non-expat D&D players in Asia, but I think they're a smaller group than D&D players who are from predominantly English speaking countries of significance (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK and Ireland) and happen to be of Asian backgrounds.
 

Horwath

Adventurer
If Asians are saying oriental is a word they dislike. Because of racist connotations. Because of outdated concepts. Listen. And do not use it.
Do not simply decide this should be kept because of nostalgia. Do not simply decide this is okay because of perceived and biased opinions.
The world has progressed. Involve cultural consultants.
Do Asian people live in Kara-Tur?
No.

Is Faerun the default continent of Abeir-Toril?
Yes.

Is Kara-Tur east of Faerun?
Yes.

Does orient mean east/easter of...?
Yes.


Now, I would never call Asian person oriental unless they wanted to be called that way, but I see no problem that some fantasy setting is called Oriental because it is eastern of the "default" fantasy setting within overall larger fantasy setting called Abeir-Toril.
 

ART!

Adventurer
On the other hand, 90% of Native Americans respond in polls that they don't have a problem with Indian sports names but a vocal 10% are always trying to force their views onto the rest of society. I assume the same thing is going on here with the word Oriental.
This is not true.

Like a lot of people, you probably heard this directly or indirectly from a 2016 Washington Post poll whose published results were widely publicized.

More recent and more scientific data give us very different numbers. In a University of Michigan and UC Berkeley survey, about half of the participants were offended by the Washington Redskins’ name, and the respondents were even more strongly opposed to the tomahawk chops, war cries, and mockeries of Native American dances.

Diversity among Native Americans makes polling very difficult. When a national survey is taken, most respondents from any one subgroup are likely to live in just a few areas, yielding a highly clustered subsample. If the cultural patterns of a particular tribal group are strongly related to the survey subject, that clustering reduces the national precision of the results.
 

tommybahama

Adventurer
This is not true.

Like a lot of people, you probably heard this directly or indirectly from a 2016 Washington Post poll whose published results were widely publicized.

More recent and more scientific data give us very different numbers. In a University of Michigan and UC Berkeley survey
I already dealt with that here. That "scientific data" was just another poll. It was heavily skewed towards women and LBGTQ. They found less than 50% of the Native population was offended.

From your link, "I think there’s a way in which we can reach out to fans to help them to understand that they are contributing to the dehumanization of Native people." Their poll may have been 'scientific' but they also had an agenda.

Edit: I still can't find any polling on Asians regarding the word Oriental.
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
I already dealt with that here. That "scientific data" was just another poll. It was heavily skewed towards women and LBGTQ. They found less than 50% of the Native population was offended.

From your link, "I think there’s a way in which we can reach out to fans to help them to understand that they are contributing to the dehumanization of Native people." Their poll may have been 'scientific' but they also had an agenda.

Edit: I still can't find any polling on Asians regarding the word Oriental.
Maybe you should check out this article, because if you think that that poll is unscientific, the other polls are much worse.

 

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