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5E How should be the future Oriental Adventures.

ART!

Adventurer
I already dealt with that here. That "scientific data" was just another poll. It was heavily skewed towards women and LBGTQ. They found less than 50% of the Native population was offended.

From your link, "I think there’s a way in which we can reach out to fans to help them to understand that they are contributing to the dehumanization of Native people." Their poll may have been 'scientific' but they also had an agenda.
One person's "less than 50%" is another person's "roughly half" and another person's "49%". Your bias is showing when you go with an unreliable and conveniently popular 90% figure, and by going with "less than 50%", and by putting quotes around the word "scientific" (which is inherently mocking - either you think it's scientific or you don't, but mocking the word itself or use of the word "scientific" is a bad look), just as the article choose to go with "roughly half".
 

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tommybahama

Adventurer
One person's "less than 50%" is another person's "roughly half" and another person's "49%". Your bias is showing when you go with an unreliable and conveniently popular 90% figure, and by going with "less than 50%", and by putting quotes around the word "scientific" (which is inherently mocking - either you think it's scientific or you don't, but mocking the word itself or use of the word "scientific" is a bad look), just as the article choose to go with "roughly half".
It's not bias to fail to link to something you've never seen before. And I'll happily confirm that I do not consider polls of this small sample size to be very scientific. And seeing that they skewed the demographics of the poll so heavily and the authors admit they have an agenda, I really don't trust the results of this poll at all.
 

that's only a small part of the problem. China especially lately has a problem with if you print anything they consider belittling them or idolizing their rivals they will keep your book out of their country. Even if you try to disguise it. I don't know how much Hasbro is worried about the China Market but it is something to consider
I've seen you mention this a few times, and I don't get why.

The idea that we shouldn't change things to be more inclusive to other people, because the chinese government will then censor it... seems really backwards. We aren't responsible for the Chinese Government, if they want to censor good content let it be on them instead of saying "well, we can't treat Japan and Korea respectfully, China won't like that"
 

Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
It's not bias to fail to link to something you've never seen before. And I'll happily confirm that I do not consider polls of this small sample size to be very scientific. And seeing that they skewed the demographics of the poll so heavily and the authors admit they have an agenda, I really don't trust the results of this poll at all.
You know the polls you cite are just as skewed because it relies on self-identification, not any proof someone is Native American on tribal land? There's a pretty big difference of opinion between those two groups.

Plus, the people who commissioned the two 90% polls you cite (Annenburg and the Washington Post) have both admitted that they don't take their own results very seriously. The WaPost's official stance is for the Redskins to change the name.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Related article. Takeaway: East Asians aren't a hivemind (imagine that) and agree or disagree on the offensiveness of the term, "Oriental". My position is that clearly enough Asians do find it offensive, and have given compelling arguments, that it's a term we shouldn't use. I, as a white man, should try to respect that, even if many Asians aren't offended. And we can move on. It's not like there aren't other terms we can use.

 

Tonguez

Hero
I remember when Warner Bros wanted to ban Speedy Gonzalez because they thought now was politically correct and then Mexicans said they loved that character very much. We know Speedy Gonzales is a complete stereotype but that doesn't mean with racist intentions.

Avatar: the last airbender and Legend of Korra are examples of "western Wuxia" (or western xuanhuan). Has anybody complain about that?

I really worrry about Chinese censure, not only about undead and dead corpses in World of Warcraft, but even an innocent character as Winnie the Pooth is censored. Even current Chinese censorship starts to dislike fantasy with spiritual elements or stories set in the (pre-revolution) imperial age (I read about that in the Epoch Times time ago, I can't find the original source). And today China isn't the queen bee in the high-school (but this would be another thread and it's not to talk about here)

Sometimes accidentaly we can cause serious controversies. For example a story about somebody who proclaim himself as the prophet of the lengs (dragons), creating a new religion, and later a civil war. Most of people would understand really it's an allegory about Hong Xiuquang and the Taiping rebellion, but somebody later could notice really a hard satire against Martin Luther, John Calvin and the Protestan Reformation.

* Let's imagine there is a "Oriental" characters but with some negative traits, a cop or law agent who doesn't want to work. Somebody could say it's a racist stereotype but really the intention by the author (maybe with Asian origin) was a little homage to the comedy manga KochiKame.

* I guess we could see some "Oriental" civilitation without true links with any real country, for example with an alphabet like the Korean but too big empire to be an analogy of Korea.

* I have notice D&D is too "cosmopolitan" for speculative fiction with Asian roots. Most of Asian fantasy is human-centric, and only now some humanoid races start to appear in videogames.

* If psionic powers are added to the SRD, why not also the "wuxia/xuanhuan" elements?

* Could WotC to publish a 5th Ed of the races from "Play Manga d20" (at least with a licecing agremeent)?

Races 種族 – d20 Anime SRD

* Would be right the title: "Kara-Tur: adventures in eastern lands"?

* What races and classes should come back? would any PC race need any retcon? are too powerful the hengeyokai with the shapesifter traits?

* My opinion is there is a open door to reintroduce the "xuanhuan" PCs, like titles in DM Guilds, to know the feedback, and later a compliation of PC races, monsters and classes in a "Xuanhuan/Wulin player handbook".
Novoland is a shared universe based on China created by 7 Chinese writers (in China) who have authored round 30 novels and a number of movie adaptions (thats how I discovered them)

Anyway the movies are epics spanning 16 dynasties across 3 continents and 9 provinces; divided into the prosperous Eastern Land and the nomadic Eight Tribes and although human centric do feature five races, magic and wuxia elements.

The Races are:
  • Humans/Ren (人族)
  • Titans (aka Giants)/Kuafu (夸父)
  • Dwarves (aka The Wise)/Heluo (河络)
  • Spirits (aka Charmers)/Mei (魅族)
  • Merfolks (aka Oceaniders)/Naga (鲛族)
  • Winged Tribe (aka Soarers)/Yu (羽族)
Maybe they could be brought in to adapt Novoland for D&D
 

The whole thing is basically a big white saviour narrative. PCs are assumed to be natives to conventional-quasi-European-fantasy-village Sandpoint, who then have to trek across the world to save the day because the people in not-Japan can't fix their own problems. This is the only time Paizo have done an adventure path in the Dragon Empires and you basically have to bend over backwards (or have mid-campaign PC deaths) to make local people the heroes.
This is my problem with many products.
  • If I play a game in Chult, I want to play a Chultan.
  • If I play a game in not-Japan, I want to play a not-Japanese character, etc....
I don't care for products where the PCs are tourists, visiting "exotic" lands and having adventures.
 

Tun Kai Poh

Adventurer
I don't see how this is hard.

If some Asian people say "this kind of language is used to harm us," stop using it. It's not 100% of people of Asian descent, it's not 50% people of Asian descent, and I guarantee even 10% of the people who live in the country where my grandparents came from don't care about D&D...

It doesn't matter if it's not a majority. There are many of them who don't speak English and don't care. Billions of people don't give a damn about D&D or the nuances of the Orientalism discourse. They have other things to do in their lives and don't deal directly with the D&D market, or EN World, or English-speaking RPG groups, or the FLGS in your neighbourhood.

But we care, because for those of us who engage with gaming in the Anglosphere, either because this is where the biggest RPG industry is or because we were colonized so of course we work in English, this is the kind of language used to harm us and our relatives. All the time. For many of you there isn't precedent unless your ancestors went through such traumatic mass events like colonization or endured systemic racism when immigrating to Anglosphere countries. But please try to understand.

If you want diverse voices to engage with the roleplaying hobby, if you want Asian stories from Asian voices, if you want us to make cool RPG stuff about things you would never dream of from reading OA, like:
...maybe don't support portrayals and language that - we're telling you - harm us and our communities. Do buy our works and reach out to us about doing bigger, better-funded projects. Because we are right here, whether in Dayton, Ohio or Brighton, England or in the heart of the youngest-trending and largest Muslim region in the world.

We're right here.

I have spoken.
 


Tun Kai Poh

Adventurer
Ok then I expect you and all others who are so convinced that OA is racist and has to be censored to demand censoring any and all D&D books mentioning knights, uses European noble titles, castles and otherwise borrows from European culture because it is offensive.

I have spoken.
Not our people, not our culture. You're making bad-faith arguments rather than trying to empathise.

Hey, I review and enjoy games about Arthurian butt-kickers. Here's me putting in the work to discuss the weaponized British folklore adventures of Scott Malthouse.


Stop trying to play Gotcha.
 

And who are those "Asians"? From the news a couple of Asian Americans so, technically, not Asians.
Derren, please tell me you are a rogue heuristic algorithm that instead of looking at cat pictures wound up on 8chan and got confused....it would be comforting.

Earlier today, in another thread, I stated that I did not think you were unkind.
I was clearly mistaken. I rescind that statement.
I really don't trust the results of this poll at all.
Of course not, it includes women and LGBTQ persons. Telephone polls based off “self identified Native Americans”......a goodly percentage of Americans claim to have some Cherokee ancestry, more than is really possible. How about a survey of people actually enrolled on tribes membership lists.

Redskin is not, has not, nor ever will be a neutral term. Would you be offended if the team was called The White Racist.....yeah... I was apparently incorrect in giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Can you tent a website for racists, like a house for termites?
 
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Would you be offended if the team was called The White Racist.....yeah... I was apparently incorrect in giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Have you ever looked at a list of the names of sports teams for colleges in the South? Even UNLV (not even in the South) calls their teams the Runnin' Rebels and had a Confederate mascot until the mid 70s. They now try to claim the nickname has nothing to do with the old mascot and the Confederate soldiers being called Rebels. So yes, there are still sports team names out there that are insulting to white people and also need to be changed.
 


Mecheon

Adventurer
So which Oriental Adventures should I buy? 1E or 3E? They are both on sale and with this ... going on it seems like it might be a good time to buy.
I haven't read the adventures myself, so can't comment on them, but I do admire 3E for the sheer absurdity of its "Y'know, let's just shove Rokugan into 3E"
 





Thans for your participation.

I am sure WotC doesn't want only to be polite and respecful but its wish is to conquer the Asian market, and not only one country. Its dream is Asian players broadcasting their own OA video game-live shows or fans publishing their web-manga using the D&D mythology.

OA has got some tropes, but they aren't racist steriotypes, at least not intentionally, but a reflection of many tropes we can see in the Asian speculative fiction (manga-anime, manwha, manhua) by and for Asians.

WotC's goal is to publish a "xuanhuan" D&D who otaku community love. The first step is to create the right pieces, and later to dare to sell your own building. And we should start with the PC races. Theses need a right power balance about racial traits, of course, but also an interesting lore.

- I imagine korobokuru (based in creatures from ainu folklore) not as jungle gnomes (like the happy little people from a 80's children cartoon) but as survivors who lived in a fallen empire withing the kami/spirit kingdom. Sometimes some korobokuru return to this cursed land to recover pieces of their lost past.

- My vision of the shen/spirit folk is of children of lungs (imperial dragons) or petitioners from the spirit realm allowed to come back to the mortal world (or planar traverlers who visited the spirit realm). Their position is not comfortable, too noble to be ordinary commoners, too low to be treated as members of the noblest castes. Then they try to find their own path. They are neither arrogante nor ambitious because they notice "the tallest poppy what stand out from the rest is the first to be wanted to be cut". Or they were normal humans for a previous life and rewarded (or punished) with a "failed reincarnation", something like the devas(aasimars) from 4th Ed or the samsarans, the PC race of Pathfinder.

- Vanara are perfect to roleplay the stranger who messes up because he doesn't know the local customs.

- Would be possible wood or metal genasies?
 

The 3rd edition book Oriental Adventures added a lot of fun to our game. I'd like to see it's counterpart in 5e. It doesn't have to reflect real world cultures accurately because its a game setting in a magical fantasy world not a historical setting. If you want a campaign in historically accurate feudal Japan, write it, but Wuxia and Kara Tur and the Empire of Rokugan are the product of a different universe. If it's inappropriate to call a new book Oriental Adventures, I have no problem with that, but I disagree with the idea that we simply can't have these settings because they misrepresent real people. In ancient Europe, warriors rode out to fight battles with other warriors, not to rescue a princess from a dragon or an evil dwarf. The stories of King Arthur, and Rapunzel, and Sinbad are still fun even if they don't fit the history of any real people. If the problem is the title, call it Adventures in Kara Tur or Al-Qadim or whatever making it clear that the intent is not to give a lesson in a culture that is not our own. It's to play in a culture that we invented for a game.
 

Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters

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