D&D 5E How Should Dragons Be Handled In 5e

[Ramaster]

I like my dragons like I like my city guards, with an arrow in the knee.

In all seriousness, the Shouts system really did sounded like the kind of magic a dragon would do. I specially like the description that two dragons breathing fire on each other are actually having an argument on their native tonge.

 

[keterys]

But flying, is never emphasized enough. It might be that the flying rules are a pain, or perhaps the metagame keeps monsters at swords length. But whatever the reason is, when a dragon isn't flying, the encounter isn't as good as it could have been.

I've DMed a lot of dragons... and I have to disagree with this entirely. If a dragon concentrates on flying, the entire encounter almost always gets worse.

It's like proactively injecting boredom into the encounter.

 

[Derren]

It depends on how you use dragons in the game.

When you just want to add a big boss to the combat then the 4E way is best.

But when you run a simulationist campaign and don't rely on DM magic to make things happen then dragons are better in their 3E variant because lets be honest, without magic they are kinda crippled as they are basically just big bullies who can't do anything besides intimidating others to do the work for them they can't do.

 

[The Human Target]

Like 4e, or something similar.

Casting spells like a somethingth level something was mechanically horridly clunky, a lot of work for the DM, and flavor wise kind of unimpressive.

 

[Hassassin]

No spell lists. I don't want to need the PHB as well as the monster manual to run a dragon.

If the dragon's get spell-like abilities: Write out what they do.

The fact that they are spells doesn't mean you can't write them out in the monster entry. That 4e listed everything in the monster entry was a good thing. That they didn't reuse spells and abilities players already learned was a bad thing. Reuse and easy reference aren't incompatible.

 

[Leatherhead]

I've DMed a lot of dragons... and I have to disagree with this entirely. If a dragon concentrates on flying, the entire encounter almost always gets worse.

It's like proactively injecting boredom into the encounter.

That's what I meant. The rules should make flying dragons fun, because they weren't as good as they could have been in the past.

 

[Kingreaper]

That's what I meant. The rules should make flying dragons fun, because they weren't as good as they could have been in the past.

My favourite encounters with flying dragons have always been in areas with high walls, or pillars, or similar.

In one, I climbed up a pillar, then jump-charged the dragon from the pillar, drawing my weapon during the jump. I intended to knock it to the ground, but I missed, and ended up clawing my way onto it's back, and trying to fight it from up there.

In one I was GMing, the party's seeker had a magic spear that pinned the dragon to the wall when he came down to attack the party (readied action FTW)

 

[Tovec]

Dragons shouldn't be that big a deal, imo. They shouldn't be intelligent, or particularly powerful, they're just another monster. In the old medieval European legends they were beasts that guarded a horde of gold, they weren't the ultimate evil of the universe.

I love the European legends that you are trying to draw upon but as I recall in most of those tales the reason the shining knight had to go defeat it was because it was such a threat. It would kill all who came to battle it, except that one knight. To me that means resilient and powerful. Many of those tales tell of brilliant dragons who are outsmarted, that tells me intelligent. There are dumb (wyverns) or less powerful (drakes) dragons already. Keep those, separate them from true dragons and make true dragons more frightful again.

Oh, that also says nothing of non-european dragons. Even norse dragons don't fit. Asian dragons are either always a threat or remarkably tiny.

They're big reptiles, they can fly, they breathe fire, they hoard gold and have a taste for maidens. They represent greed, if you want to get fancy. They're tough, too tough for a level 1 party, but they're not epic level tough. By the time you're planehopping you've outgrown them, they're a terrestrial foe.

They aren't reptiles, at least not as they've been used in DnD, not for a long time. They should be tough, they shouldn't ALL be godly strong. I do agree, in varying amounts, to everything else you said here.

But I've never particularly liked dragons (especially the colour-coding), so my view shouldn't count for much. A lot of people really love em, I know.

I couldn't agree with THIS part more. In fact Link.

Eh, it's just because it sounds good with the alliteration, it doesn't mean anything. How the heck does a dragon fit in a 10 ft corridor anyway? Dungeons and dragons don't reallly mix.

In most campaigns I've run or played in, the dragons live in their own rooms within the dungeon. The tunnels leading to them they simply do not travel.
I have run that the dragon carved out the tunnels by his traveling (burrowing) through them. That is one explanation. You can squeeze into a hole half your size - so 10 foot corridors.. 20 (space) wide dragon.
Often other holes into the central chamber exist, such as from a skyward access, or burrowed holes, or magma chambers, or subterranean waters, etc.

Firstly, I agree that dragons have never been done perfectly, but that some earlier versions are better than the (core) 4e dragons.

With regards to spellcasting, I think most dragons should have certain spells at-will instead of using a spell system like Vancian or sorcerer. Some old dragons could be wizards or sorcerers on top of that and have more usual spellcasting ability. I'm not sure how it should be implemented exactly, but maybe a short spell list for each color and all those would be available at-will.

I think a part of this has to do with the options available to creators in every edition. Especially in 3.5 - if they are already strong, can fly and have a breath weapon. They are not going to start sneak attacking like a rogue. That leaves spellcasting in one form or another. I can not really speak to dragons in other editions as I have not played them but I can imagine similar limitations exist for nearly all issues encountered.

 

[Mouseferatu]

It really seems to me that this should be doable as optional rules (as seen in the Draconomicon) or as themes.

"To give your plaid dragon a greater or lesser degree of spellcasting ability, replace 'Breath of the Bagpipes' with the spellcasting ability of a 4th-level sorcerer. If you also replace 'There Can Be Only One,' the dragon has the spellcasting of a 9th-level sorcerer. If you also replace 'Greased Scotsman,' he dragon has the spellcasting ability of a 14th-level sorcerer." And so forth.

There would probably be some level/CR adjustment, but I imagine it could be worked out.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Oh, that also says nothing of non-european dragons. Even norse dragons don't fit.

Come to think of it, Jormungandr, the world serpent in Norse myth, *is* one of the ultimate evils of the universe. Thor dies of its venom in the battle of Ragnarok. Serpents and dragons, wyrms, are the same thing in Norse mythology.