D&D 5E How Should Dragons Be Handled In 5e

[Endur]

Out of Combat: Flight: Hopefullly dragons breath weapons are once or twice an encounter to remove the fly and blast. The can soar around and bathe the hero with fire once, then they land to claw them. Only cowardly dragons go back to flight.

I disagree with the dragon landing for melee combat. If they can fly, I think they should remain flying.

The dragon should land only f there is loot that the dragon is worried about ruining with a breath weapon, or if the dragon needs to go inside a cave or building.

Dragon landing for melee combat sounds too much like GM is bored with this encounter, lets finish off the dragon and move on to the next encounter.

 

[I'm A Banana]

IMC, I've treated most of my dragon fights like cinematic, staged combats, and the structure of these combats helps resolve the flight/no flight tension nicely.

Forex, the white dragon fight I have upcoming occurs on a great ice field -- plenty of room for the white dragon to lift aloft. But, thanks to the solid flavor of pre-4e dragons, I can imagine the white dragon as a bestial hunter full of overconfidence and brimming with rage. So he likes melee combat, and creates blizzards with his powers to disable most ranged combat, forcing enemies into melee-ish range with something that is at least five times their size, and angry, isolating them one by one starting with the weakest, like wolves do to pick off deer in a herd.

Once the dragon takes some damage, it tries to flee, but just before that point, the party has the ability to wound the creature's wings, grounding it -- though it's a tough choice, since this also means no reprieve from its horrific melee attacks.

At any rate, I don't think flight is automatically a problem, but I do think it hasn't been handled the best, especially in 3e, which was essentially a "attack of opportunity, and I'm gone!" escape mechanism.

I also think that anyone going up to fight a dragon should probably prepare for the thing with wings to try and fly away, though, and I'm perfectly OK with a party having to do some prep and info-gathering before they confront most any true dragon.

 

[Minigiant]

Personally I don't like to run "James Bond Villain" monsters, especially when they are supposed to be super smart.

I disagree with the dragon landing for melee combat. If they can fly, I think they should remain flying.

The dragon should land only f there is loot that the dragon is worried about ruining with a breath weapon, or if the dragon needs to go inside a cave or building.

Dragon landing for melee combat sounds too much like GM is bored with this encounter, lets finish off the dragon and move on to the next encounter.

My point is to take away the dragon's reliable range attack. With few stack spells and only one or two breath attacks, the dragon will have to land to finish you off. No longer does the dragon fly around taking potshots at adventurers.

First turn: Breath weapon
Second turn: Attack spell
Third turn: Attack spell
Fourth turn: Out of ranged attack spells. Dragon lands for melee.

Then higher/older dragons with be more special as they can blast while airborne for longer. But by then, hopefully someone can cast fly, has a flying mount, or has a flight item.

 

[Derren]

My point is to take away the dragon's reliable range attack. With few stack spells and only one or two breath attacks, the dragon will have to land to finish you off. No longer does the dragon fly around taking potshots at adventurers.

First turn: Breath weapon
Second turn: Attack spell
Third turn: Attack spell
Fourth turn: Out of ranged attack spells. Dragon lands for melee.

Then higher/older dragons with be more special as they can blast while airborne for longer. But by then, hopefully someone can cast fly, has a flying mount, or has a flight item.

Even then they can simply drop large rocks on the PCs till they are dead or use trees as improvised reach weapons by simply dragging them across the ground while they fly (isn't that the kind of stunts people want in combat?). A smart villain will press his advantage for as much as he can. For a dragon this means staying out of the reach of melee characters unless the enemies have more ranged firepower than he has (not always guaranteed).
Problem is, smart enemies are often not very fun to fight, especially when the rules set prevents you from being smart yourself like 4E (focus on combat as sport, discouraging battlefield preparation and flexibility, especially in the weapons department)

And even outside of combat, smart flying can become "unfun" for the players, for example the dragon can fly in, let the PCs waste their spells/buff to prepare then fly away again to wait for them to run out. Or the dragon can simply flee when wounded.
Still I would take all this issues over removing the flight from dragons (make it cutscene only) because it forces the players to play smart instead of just doing their combat routine.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Oh sure, fix the thread title and screw up my XP-sucking post at the start of it.

 

[KesselZero]

I have to jump in to support dragons casting like they have class levels. I don't think it should be their main ability, and it CERTAINLY shouldn't be their only ability, but I adore the flavor of having the PCs go up against a dragon, fearing its breath and its claws and all that, and then having them bust out a spell that the party's wizard loves to spam. Turnabout! Plus dragons are meant to be extremely intelligent and have a long life full of lots of lazing about-- perfect to become either spellcasters or graduate students. It just makes sense to me that they'd be able to access the same arcane forces other intelligent creatures can.

As for the flight issue, that's one I really have trouble with. I can't really justify a smart, flying creature not keeping to the air, but I also can't justify nerfing the melee combatants and nearly guaranteeing a TPK. I've tried to build encounters that give options to combat this (I believe ruined towers were mentioned, fights in enclosed spaces, etc.) but it seems a little suspicious that dragons are always getting into fights in disadvantageous terrain.

 

[Minigiant]

Even then they can simply drop large rocks on the PCs till they are dead or use trees as improvised reach weapons by simply dragging them across the ground while they fly (isn't that the kind of stunts people want in combat?). A smart villain will press his advantage for as much as he can. For a dragon this means staying out of the reach of melee characters unless the enemies have more ranged firepower than he has (not always guaranteed).
Problem is, smart enemies are often not very fun to fight, especially when the rules set prevents you from being smart yourself like 4E (focus on combat as sport, discouraging battlefield preparation and flexibility, especially in the weapons department)

That is a whole different issue.

That is Game Given actions Vs Human created actions.

If you give dragons full access to Human Created actions, of course it would be easy to be not fun. The dragon has flight, fear, strength, hardness, spells, natural weapons, and a breath weapon.

PCs cant win the arms race as they only maybe have combat abililty and maybe spells. The only advantage the PCs have is action economy as there are often more of them.

If you go the heavy Game Given action route, the dragon wins as they have more. The only way to make it fair is to weaken their actions (less spells, limit breath attack)

If you go heavy on Human action way, the dragon still wins as they have more methods to make actions. Then you have to make them stupider to be fair.

Also 4E does not prevent you from making new actions. It does however, give you so many Game Given actions that people forget to create their own. So many paints, you forget that you can mix blue and red to make the missing purple.

And even outside of combat, smart flying can become "unfun" for the players, for example the dragon can fly in, let the PCs waste their spells/buff to prepare then fly away again to wait for them to run out. Or the dragon can simply flee when wounded.
Still I would take all this issues over removing the flight from dragons (make it cutscene only) because it forces the players to play smart instead of just doing their combat routine.

Removing flight is lame and gamist.

Like I said in other thread, instead of banning things, make them work.

Make dragon flight too poor and slow to allow kiting and escape.
Restrict breath weapons to one or twice a fight.
Limit the amount of ranged attack spells the dragon knows.

Then when the PCs are high enough level to all fly and deal with spells, take the training wheels off.

Adult black dragons pull victims one by one into magic darkness or controlled waters.
Adult blues are literally flying tanks as they focused on their breath attack
Adult greens focus on their draconic aspects of fear and charm.
Adult reds and whites still go in melee but with more deadly results.

 

[Leatherhead]

IAs for the flight issue, that's one I really have trouble with. I can't really justify a smart, flying creature not keeping to the air, but I also can't justify nerfing the melee combatants and nearly guaranteeing a TPK. I've tried to build encounters that give options to combat this (I believe ruined towers were mentioned, fights in enclosed spaces, etc.) but it seems a little suspicious that dragons are always getting into fights in disadvantageous terrain.

Well, the problem with this is that we are assuming there are going to be "melee combatants," instead of Fighters, Rogues, Paladins, or whatever.

There is no reason why the physical combat classes have to be melee-locked.

 

[KesselZero]

Well, the problem with this is that we are assuming there are going to be "melee combatants," instead of Fighters, Rogues, Paladins, or whatever.

There is no reason why the physical combat classes have to be melee-locked.

A good point, and I really hope that 5e addresses this by removing forced roles and toning down the benefits for weapon specialization. I certainly think there should be a distinction between an archer fighter and a sword-and-board fighter, but as it stands it's very possible to have a melee fighter who's completely useless with ranged weapons. In fact, it's basically forced in 4e, since the fighter is a defender with all melee powers; you could give your fighter a high Dex if you wanted but he'd still only have ranged basic attacks. In addition, if they flatten the math, remove feat-tax feats, and remove the reliance on magic item bonuses, the difference between wielding the weapon you've put all your feats and magic into and wielding a weapon you just picked up off the ground won't be so enormous as to limit options.

Fondly do I remember the 3e session where a bandit tried to flee from attacking our caravan, so I simply said "I drop my longsword and take out my composite longbow" and killed him with a single arrow. Those were the days! And that fighter would have been much more useful against dragons than a 4e fighter.

 

[KesselZero]

Make dragon flight too poor and slow to allow kiting and escape.
Restrict breath weapons to one or twice a fight.
Limit the amount of ranged attack spells the dragon knows.

Then when the PCs are high enough level to all fly and deal with spells, take the training wheels off.

I like this as the distinction between younger and older dragons, younger dragons being the sort that lower-level parties, without flying and all that support stuff, would fight.