How Should Taunting Work?

[doctorbadwolf]

A while ago, I had a disagreement with my DM about how to handle taunting an enemy to encourage it to go after you.


My character has a Familiar that is a wolf (it's a whole story), and is a rogue with the Booming Blade cantrip. We were fighting the ghost of an Ettin, and I tagged it with BB, and then had my familiar spend her action taunting the Ettin and then backing away, trying to get it to chase her.

Now, tactically, I get why a DM might want to avoid letting the enemy fall for a taunt, but ettins are classically very stupid, so I figured that good tactics weren't going to be a huge factor here, and I was right. We agreed that it wasn't smart enough to not follow something it wanted to smash just because there was a spell effect and potential opportunity attacks to consider, but we hit a snag when it came to resolving the action.


My DM called for an Intimidation check, with disadvantage, because the Ettin wouldn't normally perceive this creature as a threat. I was taken aback, and confused, and argued that threat level wasn't the point. She wasn't presenting herself as a threat, she was taunting him. What creature rushes toward a thing that has convinced them that they are a threat? I argued that it should be persuasion or deception (no better chance of success on a wolf, but for the general case it was important to distinguish) or a choice between them, depending on the approach being taken, and certainly not with disadvantage.


My theory, as a player and a DM, is that taunting can be about puffing your chest and challenging the target, BUT it can also be (and more often is IME) about harrying, annoying, or insulting the target. Making them angry, so they want to squish you, and potentially do something stupid as a result.

What do you think?

Poll has two basic questions. THe last two options are separate from the first 4.

Also, I'd probably allow Performance, if the taunter is trained.

I didn't want to clutter the poll, so I always want to ask here, what would the defense be?

Insight?

Wisdom Save vs a DC = 8+cha+prof if proficient in one of the skills?

 

[Bawylie]

I think you might’ve been more persuasive describing a feint rather than a taunt.

Your intent seems to me to have been to coax the opponent into a sub-optimal move rather than to get it to attack a specific target (which could also be circumstantially sub-optimal), per se.

I’d have allowed it. I’d have probably clarified your intent first but I’d go with an opposed charisma (deception/intimidate) versus Intelligence or Wisdom (insight). If the feint were successful, the opponent would have gone through with the sub-optimal move.

 

[iserith]

The dispute highlights why I generally only ask for the ability check and permit the player to add the skill proficiency he or she thinks applies, based on the approach to the goal the player described. Simply put, the player is going to have a better idea of what he or she means even if it's not communicated as clearly as it could have been. In this case, I would have asked for a DC 10 Charisma check. I might well have said it was at disadvantage, however, due to the ettin's two heads having to both be in agreement that the wolf needed killing.

This probably would not work more than once in my view and not necessarily be possible in all situations going forward.

 

[Krachek]

Taunting is dependent of creature stat, alignement, behavior.
Ettin should prefer humanoid flesh over beast in the OP case.
My Dm often roll at random for stupid, mindless creature.
Intelligent creature do focus or efficient targeting.
Trying to optimize BB is usually annoying.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think you might’ve been more persuasive describing a feint rather than a taunt.

Your intent seems to me to have been to coax the opponent into a sub-optimal move rather than to get it to attack a specific target (which could also be circumstantially sub-optimal), per se.

I’d have allowed it. I’d have probably clarified your intent first but I’d go with an opposed charisma (deception/intimidate) versus Intelligence or Wisdom (insight). If the feint were successful, the opponent would have gone through with the sub-optimal move.

I don't really get why feint fits better than taunt, as a description of the action? You're taunting the enemy. That's the plain english word for it. You're pissing them of to make them come after you, even if it's a dumb move on their part.

But, descriptive terminology nonwithstanding, I agree on the rest.

The dispute highlights why I generally only ask for the ability check and permit the player to add the skill proficiency he or she thinks applies, based on the approach to the goal the player described. Simply put, the player is going to have a better idea of what he or she means even if it's not communicated as clearly as it could have been. In this case, I would have asked for a DC 10 Charisma check. I might well have said it was at disadvantage, however, due to the ettin's two heads having to both be in agreement that the wolf needed killing.

This probably would not work more than once in my view and not necessarily be possible in all situations going forward.

I think the ettin aspect, for me, would instead be a thing where the DC would be set by the creature's Wisdom (Insight), and I'd have the player roll twice. If both heads fall for it, it just works as intended. If one fails, it would work on the basic Ettin thing, where neither is completely in control of their body, and I might just give the Ettin disadvantage on it's next action because the two heads are trying to do two different things.

I don't know that it should only work once, necessarily. I'd say it depends on how bad the negative consequence for the taunted creature is, and whether they are able to get to the taunting creature to try and hurt it. Definately a higher DC, though.

Or maybe, give the taunted creature a save at the start of subsequent turns, and additional saves when it takes damage from your allies.

 

[Yunru]

It's definitely Persuasion vs Insight.
As for how it should react, there's no one way even for a single species, let alone every create. Part of it also depends on what you're taunting it into doing.

I don't really get why feint fits better than taunt, as a description of the action? You're taunting the enemy. That's the plain english word for it. You're pissing them of to make them come after you, even if it's a dumb move on their part.


But, descriptive terminology nonwithstanding, I agree on the rest.

A feint would be deceiving your opponent into thinking there's an opening that isn't actually there, and thus Deception.
A taunt is persuading your opponent to take a course of action, and thus Persuasion.

Both would have different outcomes. For instance, I can't see a feint granting disadvantage against other targets, because if the feint succeeds then the creature isn't going to be attacking other targets.

 

[iserith]

I think the ettin aspect, for me, would instead be a thing where the DC would be set by the creature's Wisdom (Insight), and I'd have the player roll twice. If both heads fall for it, it just works as intended. If one fails, it would work on the basic Ettin thing, where neither is completely in control of their body, and I might just give the Ettin disadvantage on it's next action because the two heads are trying to do two different things.

This is probably a little more complicated than I would generally like, especially if I'm making a ruling in the moment. I'd also prefer a static DC instead of a contest here. The DC I chose happens to be the ettin's passive Insight, for what it's worth.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I would say it is a performance check that focuses the monster's attention for 2 rounds.* But even the slowest monster notices when someone else is hurting it, and even the hungriest monster knows when it isn't catching the food (especially if the PC is the scrawny one), so you have to try again every other round, or it will look for easier (or more tasty) prey.

* the bard should be really good at taunting, and not just because of viscous mockery.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

How would you prefer taunting to work against your PC? After all, if a ruling is made, it applies to every character in the game.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Taunting is dependent of creature stat, alignement, behavior.
Ettin should prefer humanoid flesh over beast in the OP case.
My Dm often roll at random for stupid, mindless creature.
Intelligent creature do focus or efficient targeting.
Trying to optimize BB is usually annoying.

What's annoying about using BB? I've used it as a player and had a player use it when I DM, and...never seen any problems crop up from it in any context.

My general tactic is simply to use the swashbuckler class feature to hit and run on something that is primarily melee, so it has to either give chase or sit on it's hand, or use a less powerful ranged option. if possible, my rogue hides as a bonus action after getting that attack. In an open field, he'll often forgo the BB attack, and instead use his rapier and hand crossbow to double his chance of a sneak attack, or stay at range with the hand crossbow and avoid melee.

What i do find annoying, sometimes, as great a DM as my buddy is, is when we fight basically mindless stuff like zombies, and they avoid giving chase in order to avoid the secondary damage, or to avoid another character's damaging zone, or whatever.