What if your DM just decides to do a "mid-combat save" and continues the fight next session?
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How soon do you see warning signs of a TPK?
- Thread starter Bullgrit
- Start date
What if your DM just decides to do a "mid-combat save" and continues the fight next session?
TarionzCousin
Second Most Angelic Devil Ever
In my case, our group was at the very end of two encounters crunched together into one. We had dropped 14/15 monsters.
So we had high hopes.
In firesnakearies' game, the Laws of Parliament forbid saving midgame when a legal filibuster is underway.
Iron Sky
Procedurally Generated
In 4e I had 1 near TPK in the game I ran (1 player out of 5 lived).
I think it had mostly to do with the monsters getting in a position where the PCs could only come at them 1 at a time - 1 PC vs 2 (Custom) Elite Lurkers, one after another. And the elites kicking the unconscious PCs off a 30' tower to keep the healer from bringing them back up.
Of course, the Barbarian (who survived) took on two more Elite Lurkers on his own (aside from the sorcerer tossing a few attacks at one of the elites from across the battlefield before he died). He killed them both, then held off the hundreds of hobgoblins pouring in through the gates on his own until the dwarves could get there to reinforce him and drive the hobgoblins back.
Back on subject, that near-TPK happened pretty quick. My elites were a bit overpowered (the two of them took the sorcerer from full health to -bloodied in one round). The general TPK-immanent signs for me are:
1)Party low on heals(out of surges, out of healing powers, leader down)
2)1 or more PCs unconcious, others hurt
3)2 or more monsters still at or near full hp and a couple others still alive.
Or when you see a dozen monsters of the same type come out, you blast one, and it's not a minion. I have enough experience now that by round 2 I've pretty much figured out whether monsters are minions, standard, or eliteish and roughly how tough the fight is going to be. That is, if the DM doesn't have some lurkers or flying skirmishers up their sleeves to spring a round or two in.
I think it had mostly to do with the monsters getting in a position where the PCs could only come at them 1 at a time - 1 PC vs 2 (Custom) Elite Lurkers, one after another. And the elites kicking the unconscious PCs off a 30' tower to keep the healer from bringing them back up.
Of course, the Barbarian (who survived) took on two more Elite Lurkers on his own (aside from the sorcerer tossing a few attacks at one of the elites from across the battlefield before he died). He killed them both, then held off the hundreds of hobgoblins pouring in through the gates on his own until the dwarves could get there to reinforce him and drive the hobgoblins back.
Back on subject, that near-TPK happened pretty quick. My elites were a bit overpowered (the two of them took the sorcerer from full health to -bloodied in one round). The general TPK-immanent signs for me are:
1)Party low on heals(out of surges, out of healing powers, leader down)
2)1 or more PCs unconcious, others hurt
3)2 or more monsters still at or near full hp and a couple others still alive.
Or when you see a dozen monsters of the same type come out, you blast one, and it's not a minion. I have enough experience now that by round 2 I've pretty much figured out whether monsters are minions, standard, or eliteish and roughly how tough the fight is going to be. That is, if the DM doesn't have some lurkers or flying skirmishers up their sleeves to spring a round or two in.
I have never been playing in a TPK, so I dont know that side.
The only TPK I actually did was when none of us knew the GURPS rules set to know when a fight was unwinable. The monsters in that case were unusually resistant to the parties damage dealing, and the retreat route got blocked. It was pretty clear pretty quick that everyone was going to die.
I had to short out a TPK in 4e when an ambush I made went a little too well. I had made the home-brew monsters a touch too good. I stopped using the shooting power the monsters had, and the party pulled it out with 2 down, one up only cause of a 20 on a death save, 4 failed death saves in the party, and barely more than one surge's HP between the whole group.
The only TPK I actually did was when none of us knew the GURPS rules set to know when a fight was unwinable. The monsters in that case were unusually resistant to the parties damage dealing, and the retreat route got blocked. It was pretty clear pretty quick that everyone was going to die.
I had to short out a TPK in 4e when an ambush I made went a little too well. I had made the home-brew monsters a touch too good. I stopped using the shooting power the monsters had, and the party pulled it out with 2 down, one up only cause of a 20 on a death save, 4 failed death saves in the party, and barely more than one surge's HP between the whole group.
In 3.5 an encounter can wipe the party in 1 round (fireball hurling sorcerers, level 14 npc cleric with madness domain, etc)
In 4e an encounter goes from dangerous to deadly in 3-4 rounds, but with plenty of warning signs.
In 3.5 I didn't do anything when I had a TPK, mostly because I was kinda surprised and because I was having a bad day.
In 4e I would not do anything if the PC's had an opportunity to run, but if I had cornered them with a nasty encounter I would probably try to find some way out. It's a lot easier in 4e to make the players face the consequences, since it's probably not my "fault".
BTW, if my players run and leave somebody behind, I would probably make it an obscure death if possible, or make it relatively easy to get the character resurrected. After the fact I would talk it over with the player seeing what he/she thinks is appropriate (one option leaving the character dead of course)
In 4e an encounter goes from dangerous to deadly in 3-4 rounds, but with plenty of warning signs.
In 3.5 I didn't do anything when I had a TPK, mostly because I was kinda surprised and because I was having a bad day.
In 4e I would not do anything if the PC's had an opportunity to run, but if I had cornered them with a nasty encounter I would probably try to find some way out. It's a lot easier in 4e to make the players face the consequences, since it's probably not my "fault".
BTW, if my players run and leave somebody behind, I would probably make it an obscure death if possible, or make it relatively easy to get the character resurrected. After the fact I would talk it over with the player seeing what he/she thinks is appropriate (one option leaving the character dead of course)
Most advanced warning I ever got of a TPK was when one of the players phoned me at home between games and asked "would you mind horribly if I killed off the team?"
His actual plan wasn't a TPK in the sense of the whole party dying - some were spared - but it was in the sense that all the players had to roll up new characters as those who were not dead were in no state to continue gaming in that area.
He explained why he felt his character had to do it and what he wanted to do. It made sense and was both in-character and within the character's means.
End result: A large chunk of the party dead - one of whom was spectacularly murdered one on one by the instigator - most of the rest of the party heading off to Europe with the instigator as they were all too good for this two bit town and they should go where the action is and one who was not deemed enough of a threat to warrant killing and not deemed of the calibre to go to Europe wandering off to find something else to do, secure in the knowledge it would be "unhealthy" to seek retribution.
Was an interesting and spectacular end to the campaign.
His actual plan wasn't a TPK in the sense of the whole party dying - some were spared - but it was in the sense that all the players had to roll up new characters as those who were not dead were in no state to continue gaming in that area.
He explained why he felt his character had to do it and what he wanted to do. It made sense and was both in-character and within the character's means.
End result: A large chunk of the party dead - one of whom was spectacularly murdered one on one by the instigator - most of the rest of the party heading off to Europe with the instigator as they were all too good for this two bit town and they should go where the action is and one who was not deemed enough of a threat to warrant killing and not deemed of the calibre to go to Europe wandering off to find something else to do, secure in the knowledge it would be "unhealthy" to seek retribution.
Was an interesting and spectacular end to the campaign.
D'karr
Adventurer
In 3.x there were very few times that we had a TPK, mostly because the party would usually figure out the opposition was overwhelming and would retreat.
In 4e the TPKs I've seen usually involved consistently poor rolls by the players, and good rolls by the DM. That was a sure sign, but bad luck is just that. In addition I've seen parties that were not equipped to handle some creatures. However, I've seen more TPKs be the result of tactically unsound decisions that create a "death spiral."
In low level 4e there are 3 types of creatures that are very difficult to handle if you don't have the right mix for a party. Swarms, against a group that has no area effects. Creatures with damaging auras against a party that has no damage that will mitigate the aura. The last one is more annoying than anything but still dangerous, creatures that are insubstantial and have regeneration, against a party that has no way to cancel the regeneration.
The tactically unsound decisions usually have to do with bad timing and very poor planning. For example having a bard use redirected mark against a ranged attacker that targets reflex and making the mark come from the person that is out of healing surges, is very hurt, and has the lowest reflex defense. That is pure gold dumb. I've seen a defender that was low on hit points decide to provoke an attack to get out of reach and heal but not attack the creature that was badly hurt before provoking. The creature killed him with the OA, and if the defender had decided to attack and hit he'd have killed the creature. I've seen parties that split their attacks in such a way as to be completely ineffective (fire attacks against resistance, the only person that can target WILL continues to target AC, etc.) and then continue to do it for the entirety of the combat. Those guys deserved to die.
I've seen more deaths due to this than anything else. However 4e characters are very resilient. I've seen combats that looked like TPKs that have turned completely around because when one character goes down the party changes tactics and pulls a victory from the jaws of defeat.
In 4e the TPKs I've seen usually involved consistently poor rolls by the players, and good rolls by the DM. That was a sure sign, but bad luck is just that. In addition I've seen parties that were not equipped to handle some creatures. However, I've seen more TPKs be the result of tactically unsound decisions that create a "death spiral."
In low level 4e there are 3 types of creatures that are very difficult to handle if you don't have the right mix for a party. Swarms, against a group that has no area effects. Creatures with damaging auras against a party that has no damage that will mitigate the aura. The last one is more annoying than anything but still dangerous, creatures that are insubstantial and have regeneration, against a party that has no way to cancel the regeneration.
The tactically unsound decisions usually have to do with bad timing and very poor planning. For example having a bard use redirected mark against a ranged attacker that targets reflex and making the mark come from the person that is out of healing surges, is very hurt, and has the lowest reflex defense. That is pure gold dumb. I've seen a defender that was low on hit points decide to provoke an attack to get out of reach and heal but not attack the creature that was badly hurt before provoking. The creature killed him with the OA, and if the defender had decided to attack and hit he'd have killed the creature. I've seen parties that split their attacks in such a way as to be completely ineffective (fire attacks against resistance, the only person that can target WILL continues to target AC, etc.) and then continue to do it for the entirety of the combat. Those guys deserved to die.
I've seen more deaths due to this than anything else. However 4e characters are very resilient. I've seen combats that looked like TPKs that have turned completely around because when one character goes down the party changes tactics and pulls a victory from the jaws of defeat.
Bullgrit
Adventurer
How about folks post examples of things they did to avoid having a TPK happen. Actions they implemented when they recognized the signs of a pending TPK.
As a DM and as a Player.
For me, as a Player, I recognized the warning signs of a TPK in two different D&D campaigns. I immediately tried to stop it, even at the sacrifice of my own character. But no one tried to escape the situation, and ironically, both situations turned into victories for us -- no one died, much less a TPK.
Bullgrit
As a DM and as a Player.
For me, as a Player, I recognized the warning signs of a TPK in two different D&D campaigns. I immediately tried to stop it, even at the sacrifice of my own character. But no one tried to escape the situation, and ironically, both situations turned into victories for us -- no one died, much less a TPK.
Bullgrit
Dice4Hire
First Post
I agree that 4E characters are harder to TPK, though it can happen.
In 3.X \often a single die roll could be blamed for the death spiral, like a failed save or die, or save or be screwed spell.
In 4E, in my experience, it is usually low surges (one fight too many) or things are jsut tougher than they appear, or new characters. WE als\most had a TPK on SAturday because we did have one last week, and no one really knew what their characters could do, or how to play them effectively. Also, they were not well designed as individuals and definitely not in a group.
I think gameplay tactics have a lot mroe to do with TPKs in 4E tahn in previous editions. Yes, in all editions bad rules knowledge could kill you, but so could the dice. In 4E it seems the dice do not kill characters often, which lets gameplay cause mroe of the TPKS
However, I would hazard a guess that theere are far fewer TPKs in 4E than earlier editions, particularly at low to mid levels.
In 3.X \often a single die roll could be blamed for the death spiral, like a failed save or die, or save or be screwed spell.
In 4E, in my experience, it is usually low surges (one fight too many) or things are jsut tougher than they appear, or new characters. WE als\most had a TPK on SAturday because we did have one last week, and no one really knew what their characters could do, or how to play them effectively. Also, they were not well designed as individuals and definitely not in a group.
I think gameplay tactics have a lot mroe to do with TPKs in 4E tahn in previous editions. Yes, in all editions bad rules knowledge could kill you, but so could the dice. In 4E it seems the dice do not kill characters often, which lets gameplay cause mroe of the TPKS
However, I would hazard a guess that theere are far fewer TPKs in 4E than earlier editions, particularly at low to mid levels.
Starfox
Hero
In the MMO tradition, 4E encourages "builds" that specialize heavily in one thing. Present a bow ranger with a target immune to arrows, and he might as well go home to mommy. A part of the reason for this is the structure of encounter powers you can only use once each - you want to use all of them every fight, and thus you tie them all to the same concept, which becomes your "build".
The same thing happened to sorceres in 3E - if your ONLY 3rd level spell was fireball, and you could cast four a day, complaints that you used one-sided tactics were not very constructive. Or to the barbarian that constantly raged and so on and so forth.
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