how to convert Fiend Lords (and other singular non-diety beings)?

[BOZ]

Research complete!
i decided to compare by the most obvious physical statistics, so let's see...

Name / HP / AC / MR%

Demons:
Demogorgon / 200 / -8 / 95
Juiblex / 88 / -7 / 65
Orcus / 120 -6 /85
Yeenoghu / 100 / -5 / 80
Baphomet / 106 / -4 / 75
Fraz-urb'luu / 233 / -2 / 70
Graz'zt / 186 / -9 / 70
Kostchtchie / 96 / -3 / 60
Pazuzu / 155 / -9 / 90

Devils:
Asmodeus / 199 / -7 / 90
Baalzebul / 166 / -5 / 85
Dispater / 144 / -2 / 80
Geryon / 133 / -3 / 75
Amon / 126 / -2 / 70
Bael / 106 / -3 / 70
Belial / 154 / -4 / 80
Glasya / 69 (cute) / -2 / 60
Hutijin / 111 / -4 / 65
Mammon / 139 / -3 / 75
Mephistopheles / 188 / -6 / 85
Moloch / 126 / -3 / 70
Titivilus / 86 / -2 / 75

Elementals:
Cryonax / 90 / -6 / 75
Imix / 90 / -4 / 85
Ogremoch / 110 / -7 / 85
Olhydra / 90 / -5 / 75
Yan-c-Bin / 85 / -6 / 90

Slaad:
Ssendam / 197 / -6 / 85
Ygorl / 210 / -7 / 85


OK, we can compare this to ToH stats. (I skipped some lords, since after all, we weren’t planning on going quite with ToH stats).

Name / HD / +nat armor / SR

Demons:
Baphomet / 30 / 36 / 35
Fraz-urb’luu / 46 / 36 / 41
Juiblex / 33 / 35 / 38
Kostchtchie / 28 / 36 / 36
Orcus / 45 / 40 / 46
Pazuzu / 34 / 40 / 41

Devil:
Amon / 22 / 32 / 34
Bael / 19 / 26 / 31
Geryon / 35 / 40 / 39
Hutijin / 20 / 27 / 32
Moloch / 33 / 32 / 29
Titivilus / 15 / 26 / 30

Slaad:
Ygorl / 48 / 37 / 42
Ssendam / 40 / 36 / 40


And then to the main event, the lords from BoVD.

Name / HD / +insight-+nat armor / SR

Demons:
Demogorgon / 39 / 9-18 / 42
Graz’zt / 36 / 6-13 / 38
Juiblex / 26 / 10-15 / 30
Orcus / 37 / 6-20 / 41
Yeenoghu / 33 / 6-18 / 32
Base 3.5 Balor / 20 / 0-19 / 28

Devil:
Bel / 26 / 15-20 / 30
Dispater / 34 / 0-25 / 38
Mammon / 34 / 11-22 / 37
Belial/Fierna / 36 / 6-17 / 36
Levistus / 33 / 7-15 / 37
Hag Countess / 33 / 6-18 / 35
Baalzebul / 38 / 12-25 / 41
Mephistopheles / 38 / 9-20 / 43
Asmodeus / 35 / 9-25 / 45
Base 3.5 Pit Fiend / 18 / 0-23 / 32

Note that all the lords from BoVD have abilities common to their type. All have (or should have) darkvision 60 ft, telepathy, summoning, and their race’s various immunities and resistances (which may be bumped up of course). DR has changed a bit since the printing of BoVD, so most fiend lords would now have something like DR 15 or 20/epic and good. In addition to these powers, most of the lords have a healing power (fast healing for demons, regeneration for devils), and most demon lords have see invisibility.

The conclusion I came up with is that, while it’s far from exact, the crossover is close enough that we can invent some kind of pattern going from 1E to 3.5 (2E is another matter, which we will get to sooner or later). What I think we should work on first is the big one: Hit Dice. It may be something to the effect of “if you had 141-150 hp in 1E, you have 34 HD in 3.5, and if you have 151-160 hp in 1E you have 35 HD in 3.5…” Note: we naturally want the weakest lord to be more powerful than the weakest of the most powerful kind, this is why I included balors and pit fiends on the list! We can use adjustments as appropriate, such as +1 HD if it's a demon, or whatever makes sense.

Get the idea? Then, once we have HD figured out, the rest should flow pretty naturally. When we have a set of conversion guidelines that work for fiend lords, it technically should work for converting other epic-level beings.

 

[BOZ]

Hey BOZ, I remember when RttToEE came out, people were complaining that Imix wasn't a straight port, so much as a reinterpretation, Monte actually discusses this somewhere. Would you be following Imix's example for the conversions of the others? Or more straight conversions from the old school?

that being the case, we might just redo imix from scratch. maybe.

 

[Garnfellow]

Research complete!

The conclusion I came up with is that, while it’s far from exact, the crossover is close enough that we can invent some kind of pattern going from 1E to 3.5 (2E is another matter, which we will get to sooner or later). What I think we should work on first is the big one: Hit Dice. It may be something to the effect of “if you had 141-150 hp in 1E, you have 34 HD in 3.5, and if you have 151-160 hp in 1E you have 35 HD in 3.5…” Note: we naturally want the weakest lord to be more powerful than the weakest of the most powerful kind, this is why I included balors and pit fiends on the list! We can use adjustments as appropriate, such as +1 HD if it's a demon, or whatever makes sense.

Get the idea? Then, once we have HD figured out, the rest should flow pretty naturally. When we have a set of conversion guidelines that work for fiend lords, it technically should work for converting other epic-level beings.

I did a spreadsheet for this very purpose back in January and a couple of interesting patterns developed. First, I took 1st edition hit points and divided by 4.5 to get 1e HD, then compared this to the BoVD HD (as well as the stats in the web enhancement).

In the BoVD, all of the fiends top out at an upper limit of 39 HD -- that defines your ceiling.

The floor was -- I think -- a lower limit of 18 HD. So 1e fiends with less than 18 get an increase in HD in 3e, and fiends with more than 39 get a decrease. The shift is not completely consistent -- Juiblex, for example, gets a much more dramatic downshift in HD than would be expected. Anyway, I looked for some trends and came up with the following quick and dirty conversion chart. The number on the leftmost would be the 1e hit point range; the middle 1e HD; and the number on the right is the 3e HD.

1e hp | 1e | 3e
---------------------
___-65_ | 14 | 24
_66-69_ | 15 | 24
_70-74_ | 16 | 25
_75-78_ | 17 | 25
_79-83_ | 18 | 26
_84-87_ | 19 | 26
_88-92_ | 20 | 27
_93-96_ | 21 | 27
_97-101 | 22 | 28
102-105 | 23 | 28
106-110 | 24 | 29
111-114 | 25 | 29
115-119 | 26 | 30
120-123 | 27 | 30
124-128 | 28 | 31
129-132 | 29 | 32
133-137 | 30 | 32
138-141 | 31 | 33
142-146 | 32 | 34
147-150 | 33 | 34
151-155 | 34 | 34
156-159 | 35 | 35
160-164 | 36 | 35
165-168 | 37 | 36
169-173 | 38 | 36
174-177 | 39 | 37
178-182 | 40 | 37
183-186 | 41 | 38
187-191 | 42 | 38
192-195 | 43 | 39
196+___ | 44 | 39
​

When I did a couple of conversions myself, I used this chart to get a starting HD. Then I moved the number up or down the line based on the fiend's relative importance in the Abyssal/Infernal schemas. A demon prince, for example, that controlled 2 Abyssal layers should probably be more powerful than a prince that only controlled 1 layer, which should in turn be more powerful than a mere demon lord that rules part of a layer.

I also did a few other comparisons where possible -- AC, Strength, Intelligence, MR/SR. I think I even came up with a standard array for fiend lord.

 

[Leopold]

INGENIUS STUFF!!.

YARR!!! This be perfect for what we be needing! YAR!!!

--leo "Pirates! 2 is coming!" pold

 

[BOZ]

well well well, looks like i wasn't the first one to start thinking about this. what do the rest of you think, should we just use this formula as is or what?

 

[Krishnath]

I suggest we use the table that garnfellow posted as a basis, and then modify the indevidual fiends according to how powerful they are, just as he suggested, based on their 'political' power. But I also suggest that none of the fiend lords be given less than 21 HD, as this is one more HD than the number of HD that a Balor has in 3.5, of course this is just my humble opinion.

 

[Garnfellow]

I suggest we use the table that garnfellow posted as a basis, and then modify the indevidual fiends according to how powerful they are, just as he suggested, based on their 'political' power. But I also suggest that none of the fiend lords be given less than 21 HD, as this is one more HD than the number of HD that a Balor has in 3.5, of course this is just my humble opinion.

I think that's a good guideline, particularly for all the marquee fiends. I could see some of the lesser lights -- like the consorts and flunkies described in Greenwood's article -- as possibly being weaker (in HD) than the most powerful fiendish races (Pit Fiends and Balors). But this is probably no more than half a dozen of the entities on Boz's list.

Another lower limit to consider would be 19 HD -- the minimum level at which outsiders are not subject to 3.5e's greater planar binding.

 

[Garnfellow]

AC Comparison

Here was the Armor Class comparison. First I converted the 1e AC (10 to -10, lower better) to 3e:

Fiend_________ | 1e | 3e
--------------------------
Amon__________ | 22 | 36
Asmodeus______ | 27 | 49
Baalzebub_____ | 25 | 47
Belial________ | 24 | 40
Demogorgon____ | 28 | 47
Dispater______ | 22 | 45
Geryon________ | 23 | 40
Glasya________ | 22 | 34
Graz'zt_______ | 29 | 43
Juiblex_______ | 27 | 37
Mammon________ | 23 | 44
Mephistopholes | 26 | 47
Orcus_________ | 26 | 47
Pazuzu________ | 29 | 43
Yeenoghu______ | 25 | 42

​

So on average, a 3e AC is 1.7 times the 1e AC. And note that everyone's AC increased. These 3e ACs tend to break out as a natural AC bonus of anywhere from +10 to +20, an insight bonus of +5 to +15, and then misc Dex and armor modifiers.

As an aside, the Epic Level Handbook sets a nice precedent for giving nasty outsiders a profane AC bonus, something we ought to consider. Most of the BoVD fiends have very weak touch ACs, and an average +5 profane AC bonus would help redress that.

 

[Leopold]

garn=teh winner! When do we start?

 

[BOZ]

let me work out some additional guidelines, and we'll get started.

I could see some of the lesser lights -- like the consorts and flunkies described in Greenwood's article -- as possibly being weaker (in HD) than the most powerful fiendish races (Pit Fiends and Balors). But this is probably no more than half a dozen of the entities on Boz's list.

glasya in BoVD, for example.