D&D 5E How to De-Magic 5e

[Blue]

Just bringing up a concern so it can be faced head-on. One benefit of the current "everything is a spell" design mentality is how multiclassing stacks. If you look at AD&D multiclassing, because of the XP charts you were not particularly far behind if you were a caster and something else (or even triple classed). Because on-level spells were important. In 3.x, when multiclassing became king, one way to gimp your character was to take levels of somethign that didn't advance your primary casting. A cleric/wizard was a lousy combonation unless you ended up taking something like the mystic theurge that advanced two casting progressions at once.

5e has a system that balances between these, were advancing in a different casting class have value but also limitations. I've found myself bumping my head with this with X/Warlock multiclasses already.

Not bringing this up to say your idea won't work, bringing it up so that it can be addressed in whatever you go with.

 

[Blue]

My ideal world would get rid of cantrips entirely to start with; maybe tinkering with spells at higher levels to give them more oomph. Definitely not giving more spells.

Okay, throwing some ideas out there.

Get rid of cantrips*+, keep the exact same number of spells. Reduce the encounters-between-long-rests expectation to a saner number like 4.

Spoiler

* Warlock needs EB or a replacement. Sorcerer has the most cantrips and least spells known, they will need some rebalancing. Or maybe that's what makes a sorcerer unique - they among everyone still have cantrips because they are the embodiment of magic. Some others (AK & EK if you keep them) may also need adjustments since they have special abilities around cantrips. Oh, and half the clerci domains do as well.

+ Just something that came up in the multiple "get rid of cantrips" threads. Often getting rid of combat cantrips was enough to make them rare again. Allowing the wizard to light his pipe with magic was still considered cool. You could even leave it as "keep druidcraft, thaumaturgy, or prestidigitation".

This addresses the biggest pet peeve of mine about the number of encounters being a balance point between the long-rest, short-rest, and at will resource recovery models. And can baance just stripping out (combat) cantrips.

To give an example, a caster (past Tier 1) has about the same number of "offense viable" spell slots, even as they go up levels, because low level slots aren't worth the action spent. Those low level slots are used for utility. Those offense viable slots produce a result > than a martial character. Cantrips produce a viable-to-spend-an-action result, but are < than a martial character. Those average out over time.

Now, taking out cantrips means that casters will either be using light crosspows, darts, etc which are even less than cantrips (again, we're talking tier 2 and higher), so the average goes down farther. But if there are less encounters per long rest, that means there are less actions that are spent on the very-low-return actions.

So even-less-results, but less of them, still works out at a balance point. If it's a valid balance point I say it would need testing. But it's something.

Note that this may end up with casters doing less utility casting to keep their slots for combat, since even a 1st level spell does more than a light crossbow.

Also that casters are not the only long-rest classes. For example a barbarian will do well with less encounters per day because they can rage in a larger percentage of them.

 

[dave2008]

I'm with you @lowkey13 I too prefer less magic (not less powerful). He is what we have done:

A) Cantrips do not scale and the cost slots just like spells (level 0 slots).

B) not sure about that one, but I get you you. How does AIME handle it? Can you just give the various classes the equivalent of the spell, but make it a class feature?

Personally, another thing we have done is restrict magic to half-caster classes or you can multi-class into a full caster, but no more than half of your levels can be in a full caster class.

 

[Salthorae]

Well, I am throwing it out there for other ideas.

Would you re-include the old 2e 1st level spell named "Cantrip"?

Spoiler: Cantrip (PHB pg 171)

Cantrips are minor spells I studied by wizards during their apprenticeship, regardless of school. The cantrip spell is a practice method for the apprentice, teaching him how to tap minute amounts of magical energy. Once cast, the cantrip spell enables the caster to create minor magical effects for the duration of the spell.

So minor are these effects that they have severe limitations. They are completely unable to cause a loss of hit points, cannot affect the concentration of spellcasters, and can only create small, obviously magical materials. Furthermore, materials created by a cantrip are extremely fragile and cannot be used as tools of any sort. Lastly, a cantrip lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects.

Whatever manifestation the cantrip takes, it remains in effect only as long as the wizard concentrates. Wizards typically use cantrips to impress common folk, amuse children, and brighten dreary lives.

Common tricks with cantrips include tinklings of ethereal music, brightening faded flowers, glowing balls that float over the caster's hand, puffs of wind to flicker candles, spicing up aromas and flavors of bland food, and little whirlwinds to sweep dust under rugs. Combined with the unseen servant spell, these are the tools to make housekeeping and entertaining simpler for the wizard.

Yeah, I don't think we need Paladins and Rangers to be casters.

Even in 1e Rangers were spellcasters. At 8th level they started getting Druid spells and at 9th level they started getting Wizard (Magic-user) spells also, so they were like Double magic martial class even in 1e.

2e reduced them to just Priest spells starting at 8th level.

1e Paladins also started to get access to Priest spells at 9th level.

2e kept Paladins to Priest spells at 9th level

It's not like 3.x or 5e brought spellcasting to these classes, 5e just continued the trend of 3.x of bringing their casting abilities forward.

 

[Krachek]

Some hints.

Transform paladin, ranger and bard into 1/3 caster. Using the Eldritch Knight frame.

Cleric remove most domain, keep the war and maybe storm. Remove sacred flame.

Wizard, sorcerer, Druid Transform attack cantrip into fist level spell. Those spells last one minute and allow spell attack. It don’t scale with caster level but may be upcast for better damage and lasting longer.

Warlock.
Keep fiend patron and pact blade.
Transform eldritch blast into a class ability.

Remove magic initiate feat and ritual caster feat.

Hope it help you adapt your game.

 

[Blue]

@lowkey13 since this is about hitting your preferred blend, what is your thinking on rituals?

Is that a "even more castings per day!" to cut down, is it "slow and grand so it's how I envision magic", or even going the other direction of "more utility spells should be rituals because without cantrips spell slots will be saved for combat and I think magic should be more than just combat"?

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Yaarel]

@lowkey13

I dont understand the difficulty. If you arent in the mood for high magic, then ban spellcasters. Martial classes only. And if someone wants a splash of magic, use a feat. The solution is so simple. I dont grok the existence of a difficulty.



In 4e, this thematic division was even easier.

I had Material Plane be strictly Martial classes (Human) and Primal classes (certain Nonhumans).

I had the Feywild be strictly Arcane and Psionic classes.

If there were any Humans who knew magic it was because of contacts with Nonhumans.

Likewise, the concept of Martial powers were alien to the Fey Eladrin. If there were any who trained physically, it was because of having been in the Material Plane and learning the skills from Humans.



Assign the classes and races that make sense for a setting. Done.

 

[dave2008]

I'll have to have a look at what AIME does, I guess.

I was just checking out AIME, and is really low magic, like essentially no magic. There is also a bit of middle earth specific features that would need to be modified. It is definitely interesting and not your typical D&D