How to do: Halving Damage and using resistances

[blittim98]

Hi,
In my last game, my players were fighting a red dragon. One of my players was using a "Ring of Adaptation:"
"Ring of Adaptation Level 23
This silvery metal loop is engraved with Primordial runes, protecting
you from elemental effects.
Item Slot: Ring 425,000 gp
Property: Gain a +5 item bonus to Endurance checks to
endure extreme weather.
Power (Daily): Immediate Interrupt. Use this power when
you would take acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder
damage. Take half damage from that damage type until
the end of your next turn.
If you’ve reached at least one milestone today, this power
lasts until the end of the encounter."

(They had reached a milestone for that day) I thought that the resistance should go through, then the half damage takes effect. I/we looked through the book and couldnt find anything really relating to this. He was arguing with me that damage is halved first, then resistance is taken away. My way of thinking, a 40 fire damage hit, (With his 20 fire damage resist), would do 10 damage. With his way, it would do 0. It annoyed me that he got flustered over it, (which actually made me flustered and slowed the game), i ruled it my way and got the game going on. So, is there an official way the order of this is suppose to go? Thank you

 

[Starglim]

He shouldn't have argued with you and delayed the game. Having said that, I think your player's interpretation is right.

He takes half fire damage. edit: When he takes fire damage, he reduces that damage by 20 (PHB p. 276).

Based on this, I'm inclined to say that halving damage does happen before resistance, by the rules.

However, even if you don't accept that and think the rules don't define the order in which they happen, you should allow him to apply his powers in the way most beneficial to him, unless there's a rule that prevents it. Characters (and monsters too) should benefit from their abilities. That's why they have them and paid game resources for them.

 

[crantastic]

He shouldn't have argued with you and delayed the game. Having said that, I think your player's interpretation is right.

He takes half fire damage. When he takes fire damage, he reduces that damage by 10 (PHB p. 276).

Based on this, I'm inclined to say that halving damage does happen before resistance, by the rules.

However, even if you don't accept that and think the rules don't define the order in which they happen, you should allow him to apply his powers in the way most beneficial to him, unless there's a rule that prevents it. Characters (and monsters too) should benefit from their abilities. That's why they have them and paid game resources for them.

as the ring is currently worded, i agree, halve the damage, then subtract the target's resistance. the problem is that the ring doesn't explain what this halving of damage is from.

to me, this ring's power seems most like the variable resistance ability defined in the Monster Manual on pg 282:

As a free action, the monster chooses a type of damage from the following list: acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder. The monster gains the specified amount of resistance to the chosen damage type for the rest of the encounter, and this replaces any resistance the monster already had against that damage type.

If the ring is magically bestowing this same effect, then it would REPLACE any existing resistance, meaning your player's use of the ring would be a wash or less.

 

[frankthedm]

Either way works since they both work when you take the damage.

It is usually a good idea to look over magic items before allowing a player to take them. It is helpful to keep an eye out for questions like these.

 

[blittim98]

Based on how the ring is worded, you can't really tell what order it is suppose to go it. The way i see it. It says you take half damage. Ok... So with a fire resistance of 20, someone hits you with an attack that does 40, you will be taking 20 damage then. So that damage is halved, because your person isn't actually taking the 40 damage, he is taking 20. So based on that, you half what you take. And as someone else had mentioned, the power is described as an immediate interrupt, and said that the immediate interrupt activates when you take damage. So, anymore thoughts on it and is there anything actually in the rules to state how this goes?

 

[crantastic]

So, anymore thoughts on it and is there anything actually in the rules to state how this goes?

i think you do it the same way as attacks that do double damage. do you double the base damage, then add bonuses, or do you add all bonuses, then double? i don't know and don't have my books atm. basically, the ordinal of the operation determines how it's calculated.

i don't think it would be inappropriate to avoid determining an order by ruling the ring's enchantment a "variable resistance" power and not let it stack with existing resistances.

 

[Larrin]

This concept is similar to case of insubstantial characters with resistances/vulnerablities. Insubstantial halves all damage.

Say you have a ghost with resistance 10 necrotic, vulnerability 10 radiant.

If you apply resitance and vulnerabity first, they get pretty squased. that 10 resist only really prevents 5 damage in the end, and that vulnerabilty to radiant only gives an extra 5 damage. That doesn't seem right, if they have a vulnerability to radiant hitting them with radiance should deal the extra 10 damage.

Thus i believe you half the damage then apply the resists/vulnerabilites in cases of insubstantial. I believe this question may have been answered by 'ask the sage' but i'm not positive.

For your character i think the same should happen. Half the damage, then check it against resist/vulnerability and subtract/add the bonus damage.

In general it just works best if resist/vulnerability is the very last thing you apply, keeps it simple.

 

[Caliban]

In general it just works best if resist/vulnerability is the very last thing you apply, keeps it simple.

You would think so, but that is not what WoTC has chosen to do.

Ask Wizards: 11/10/2008

Q: What happens when damage is dealt to a creature with both insubstantial and vulnerability? For example, let’s say I deal 1 radiant damage to a specter (who has vulnerability 5 radiant). What happens?

A: You apply the vulnerability first, bringing the total up to 6 damage, then apply the insubstantial, cutting it by half for a final total of 3 damage. You would do the same with resistance, so a specter taking 12 necrotic damage first reduces it to 2, which then gets cut in half to 1 because it’s insubstantial.

 

[blittim98]

Thank you Caliban for that answer. That way, to me, it makes sense. Because, you are cutting the damage you take in half. In which case, if you have resistances, you are never taking that damage you are resisting. So it would make sense that you wouldnt actually half that.

And to crantastic, i can't think of any instances in this version of the top of my head where you double damage, but you would only double your weapon damage, and not the enhancement or strength id think...

Thank you

 

[parra]

I think you should reduce for resistence then half the damage. There is an implied order of effect in the wording of the ring
It says "Use this power when
you would take acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder
damage."

So it would only come into effect on the condition that you actually take some damage. If no damage is dealt then the ring doesnt activate.
To know if you have actually taken any damage you must first see if your resistence doesnt already reduce that damage to zero. If it does then you have not taken any damage and the ring isnt required to activate. If it doesnt then you can decide to activate it or not to reduce the damage further.