How to hurt a party KotS style - Ginnel stay out :-p

[Lucas Blackstone]

28 point buy is VERY overpowered. It allows for PC's that are far more powerful then intended for the monster design. You should probably reign these characters in for an overhaul and fix them for 22 point buy system. The PC's will still come out on top in most encounters, but you will see far more reasonable combat results barring abnormal rolling streaks by the party or the DM. If you like the party being overpowered then keep it the way it is.

 

[webrunner]

The kobold variants in Dragon sound like what you need.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drcinc/20080620a

The Wild Mage or War Priest should keep them busy.

I second this: some pikers and spikers played well can effectlvey block off the two ways around the big central wall, forcing the fight into the choke, allowing Irontooth's multi-hit to always have targets.. I actually had a Piker push a character onto some spiker caltrops (as the spiker had already died and couldn't do it) and it ended up dropping the party paladin.

The Piker and Spiker have really good HP for their level (both more than 40)

I added a Vermin Handler to the fight outside, and took the party Fighter out of the fight for the entire time as h ekept failing his saves.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Retcon the stats back down to 22 point buy. It's probably the easiest fix.

I would Mengu's proposal. Just explain to your players that you have problems balancing encounters, and probably will have problems the whole game if they don't agree to remake the characters with 22 point buy. Most reasonable players will agree.

I have had a few session with 3 characters, some with 4 characters and some with 6 characters. I have scaled the encounters to match the number of players. The party synergy at 6 characters is WAY higher than it is at 3 characters. It is easier to flank, easier to spread the damage, easier to heal, etc.

You might want to consider Elite-ing one or more of the monsters the characters are meeting. It will probably work better than just adding monsters, as this will just make the game slower.

 

[bardolph]

I ran KotS with 6 characters:

1) Dwarf Paladin - Axe and board
2) Dwarf Fighter - Greataxe
3) Dwarf Warlord - Inspiring
4) Dwarf Rogue - Scoundrel
5) Dwarf Warlock - Infernal
6) Dwarf Wizard - Orb

(It was my requirement to have an all-Dwarf party. I figured it would promote group cohesion.)

First encounter: I added a Kobold Slyblade (Level 4 Lurker) and converted the encounter to a toll negotiation instead of a straight ambush.

The warlord decided to sell them some real estate. A few Bluff rolls later, they managed to relieve the kobolds of all their gold and silver, and the kobolds ran home to go get more gold to complete the down payment on their new "meat farm."

Result: no combat.

Second encounter (kobold ambush #2): I decided that Irontooth wasn't too happy about the real estate deal from encounter #1, killed everyone except Artilla (the slyblade), and sent him back with new troops and a new mission on pain of death. I ran the encounter as written, with the addition of the Kobold Slyblade.

Result: about 5 healing surges spent during combat (between Lay on Hands, Inspiring Word, and Second Wind). All Action Points and about half of the dailies were spent. The Paladin seesawed between positive and negative hit points like an inflatable punching clown. About 4 more healing surges spent after the encounter.

The party was ready for more punishment, and pressed on to the Burial Site without an Extended Rest.

Third encounter (burial site): The warlock taunted me into throwing in an extra drake, and this nearly resulted in total party death. A wizard Sleep slowed the drakes down enough to take out all the humanoids, but 3 guard drakes on their own turned out to be a wrecking crew. The paladin was downed and collected 2 save failures before getting rescued. Same happened to the rogue, who got 2 strikes, was rescued, then went down again and collected 2 more strikes, and was rescued again. The fighter died. However, the player was a visitor from Atlanta, so we'll consider it good fortune that none of the primary PCs died.

Halfway through the battle, when only half the party was up and functional, the Warlock was just about ready to run away and abandon his wounded companions. Hmm... wasn't he the one who wanted the "extra challenge" in the first place?

Lesson learned: 4e is pretty well-balanced as written. I need to think carefully before casually throwing in extra monsters.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Right I'm DMing for a party, maybe foolishly I let the players have a 28 point buy,

That is going to make a big difference, between split primaries and secondaries, most classes need three good stats - either one high and two good, or two as high as you can manage and one adequate - add on feat preqs and most characters face very tough decisions when it comes to picking thier stats. 6 more points takes a lot of that preasure off.

Dragonborn Fighter / Wizard - Sword and board

This is a slightly odd combo, but could be pulled off with the high stats you gave out.

Tiefling Paladin - Cha - Axe and board

Normally affording the stats to be good with an axe, and fuel your pretty paladin CHA prayers would lead to some compromises.

Dragonborn Wizard - Orb - Cloud of Daggers and Thunderwave

Without the extra stat points, this would be decidedly sub-optimal.

Tiefling Warlock - Infernal

A classic, viable due to Infernal blood in spite of the lack of CON bonus, normally, probably overpowering if able to afford high CON and INT and CHA.

Half elf Warlord - Inspiring Prescence

A good choice normally, probably overpowering with a high STR and CHA, and enough CON to get better armor feats.

Dwarf Cleric - Str/Wis mix

Mixing primary stats is usuallly a recipe for suckage, unless your race adds to both, but with six extra points to burn...

I now have inside to run (which I've seperated as an encounter for spending action points) and i'm waiting for irontooth to bring on the hurt.
1) Any suggestions on which kobold/s I should add to make the fight challenging.

I'm guessing the monsters you've created (I'm talking about the high-stat party, here) are probably the equal of a party a level or two higher, and you should either adjust encounters accordingly, or explain that you goofed with the overly generous point-buy. (The default 22 point buy is nearly equivalent to a 32 point buy in 3e. The cost of stats goes up at 14 instead of 15, so it's not quite as good, but since you're buying up from 10,10,10,10,10,8 instead of 8,8,8,8,8,8, it's pretty close.)

and 2) Is this normal (i'm used to 3rd Ed but other people always seem to have people dropping), am I just rolling badly or is the party one that can keep on treking until they run out of healing surges?

A party is supposed to be limitted by thier expenditure of healing surges, so if each member has a few left, they can probably survive another encounter. I'm guessing most run out of dailies before surges, though, especially at low level.

 

[DM_Blake]

The paladin was downed and collected 2 save failures before getting rescued. Same happened to the rogue, who got 2 strikes, was rescued, then went down again and collected 2 more strikes, and was rescued again. The fighter died. However, the player was a visitor from Atlanta, so we'll consider it good fortune that none of the primary PCs died.

Hate to say it, but your rogue actuallye died.

3 faield death saves between rests is fatal. He failed 4 death saves between rests.

Just thought you should know.

 

[bardolph]

Hate to say it, but your rogue actuallye died.

3 faield death saves between rests is fatal. He failed 4 death saves between rests.

Just thought you should know.

Ah, so it doesn't reset? I'll remember that for next time.

So many rules, so little time...

 

[Griogre]

Ninjaed

 

[Rechan]

Hate to say it, but your rogue actuallye died.

3 faield death saves between rests is fatal. He failed 4 death saves between rests.

Just thought you should know.

BETWEEN RESTS?

I thought it reset every time you managed to stand back up.

 

[DLichen]

You autostabilize out of combat I'm fairly sure.