How to hurt a party KotS style - Ginnel stay out :-p

[Xorn]

Why does a first level PC have a level 5 magical weapon? Granted, it's part of the standard parcel for 1st level encounters, but still. Why does he have it at this point? Or had these characters adventured before? Still first level?

Sounds like they ran through Kobold Hall. Loot at the end of the adventure included a +1 Lifedrinker weapon (with the recommendation to make it something usable by the party). They would probably still be level 1 though, Kobold Hall is 5 encounters, about half a level, maybe another 1/4 if they do a quest, too.

The issue here was the 28 point buy, in my opinion. The scaling was the perfect way to do it: add 20% to the experience budget and you're set. I'm running KotS for four right now, and your two options are to cut 20% of the experience budget, or just acknowledge that the encounters are roughly +1 level from what is listed.

I've been opting for the latter since they entered the Keep, as they hit level 2 before the adventure expects them to. So a level 1 encounter for 5 players (100x5=500 xp) is the same as a level 2 encounter for 4 players (125x4=500).

 

[silentounce]

Yeah, I'm running it to with some slight modifications that haven't kicked in it. Mostly plot stuff.

Right now they've only had the first two encounters. We've got a minotaur fighter greataxe fighter, dwarven cleric of bahamut/moradin, githyanki star pact warlock, and a githyanki rogue. The first combat went smoothly, they weren't hurt too badly and then hit the town. After messing around for a while and going to a nearby farm, and talking to the lord they hit the sack. They handled the first encounter well so I decided not to take any enemies off of the ambush. They burned all their dailies, healing powers, action points, and most took a second wind. But they were rolling very poorly and I was rolling really well. I think I rolled at least a half dozen 20s, three of them were from minions though, so really not a crit. The minotaur went down, but didn't die. I mean, he's the sole defender though, that's his job. And, well, let's just say that mob power that gives the dragonshields a +1 per ally adjacent combined with shifty is really badass. It was funny though, it played like it was supposed to because the warlock hardly got hit at all, he stayed to the back, and the cleric took minimal damage as well. The big minotaur was up front soaking it. The rogue got immobilized by a glue pot at the very beginning of the battle, so that caused him to take more than he normally would. After the battle I realized that I accidentally gave the ambushers a full round of actions instead of just a standard action during the surprise round, but it didn't really matter because most had to use double moves to reach the party. What was up with that anyway, a DC 25 perception check for 1st level ambush? I guess the designer really wanted to surprise them all. I thought about adjusting that but I'm trying to play it as written just to see how it plays.

They're heading back to town to regroup. I think next time, if we still only have four (our group fluctuates between five and nine) then I may adjust the encounters only because I don't want them to have to take an extended rest after every encounter. I'm not sure what to do about Irontooth. If I have at least five PCs I may play it as is but warn them ahead of time that it's a sixth level encounter and that many people have had TPKs. They love a challenge. I may add some other encounters from later on earlier in the adventure and create a few of my own to get them to second level before Irontooth. Or maybe I'll just swap Balgron and Irontooth. We'll see what happens.

I was going to try to keep detailed stats from the encounter to post here, but it was late after an earlier session in a different campaign. I guess instead of starting my own thread I'll just come back here and update what happens next.


And, yeah, 28 point buy is pretty ridiculous if you're not going to adjust things at all. 4e is very sensitive to small pluses and minuses, see my comment about the mob attack thing above. That +3 to 4 that the kobolds were getting and the +2 from combat advantage meant that Bevo, Minotaur Warrior was getting his ass handed to him. Having a controller to help take out the minions would have helped a bit.

 

[Solodan]

I'd say a 28 point buy is worth probably 1 level, maybe 2. The extra points are probably giving all your characters a +1 to all their main stats, so they are effectively using skills at +2 levels. However, since they lack the HP, feats and powers, that'd knock it back to only 1 level.

maybe that'd be too much for some fights, but you can certainly push them a lot more.

 

[fba827]

I can't speak on the topic of balancing it, however, if you do follow the suggestion to scrap the 28-buy PCs and have them make fresh ones, I would suggest letting the players port the exp total from the old chars to the new (thus, starting at level 1 but probably bumped up a level or 2 depending on how far they got in the adventure). This may help avoid any resistance for the PC-restart.

 

[silentounce]

Well, yesterday we ran through the crater encounter and then the lair. They easily dispatched the monsters outside the lair and the party's new member, an elf ranger, managed to take out the slinger with two well placed arrows before he was able to get inside and warn the rest.

I pause play here to make an announcement. I warned them about this encounter and how people were complaining online, tpks, etc. I even told them it was level six. I never do this, but we wanted to see how it would play because we're trying out 4e and this product. I gave them an extended rest for free after taking out the outside people. So, they went in knowing it was level six, that it had tpked several groups, and they were fully rested/refreshed. Party was minotaur fighter, githyanki star pact warlock, githyanki rogue, elf ranger, and dwarf cleric. All of them burned all their dailies and encounters. They all used their action points and second winds. Result: fighter and rogue dead, all three others bloodied, and they barely pulled of a victory. If I had not told them about the encounter ahead of time it most likely would have been a tpk and I'm sure they would have never wanted me to DM again, in fact, they confirmed this. Oh, and they managed to take out the first wave entirely in three rounds before the second wave was able to engage. Which didn't make sense anyway, because at one point the wyrmpriest and dragonshields would have been able to see the PCs only at only a dozen or so squares away. But we wanted to play it as written, so they hung back until the end of the third round. Oh, and some of the PCs got a surprise round on the first wave as well. 1st level party + 6th level encounter = bad design.

 

[Shabe]

Well i ended up adding a Kobold Skyblade into the mix for the first wave and another dragonshield on the second wave of the irontooth encounter, and even though they didn't have all their dailies and encounter powers the fight ran very close, result dwarven cleric (poor cleric only has AC 16)was 1 hp from death and the dragonborn fighter was down. Irontooth was the last monster standing and was the one responsible for downing both characters, so i didn't even get to use the kobold victory chart.
All the melee combatants had used their second winds and the entire party were out of healing powers, so i'm quite pleased with the way it turned out, and allowing them to use their action points again even though there wasn't a short rest between encounters definitely was a good idea.
And damn if a paladin's enfeebling strike isn't one of the most annoying things ever.

Now i've just got to make sure there is a fight that challenging every two sessions or so.

 

[bardolph]

I ran Irontooth last night. TPK. Party composition:

• Dwarf Warlord
• Dwarf Rogue
• Dwarf Warlock
• Dwarf Wizard
• Douven Stahl (2nd level Dwarf Ranger. The paladin couldn't make it, so I brought in Douven to pinch-hit).

The missing Defender really hurt the party, in the final analysis. The party blew through the outside part of the encounter in a couple of rounds, but they could not stop the Slinger from running inside.

I gave the party a free Encounter-power recharge, and they followed the Slinger in hot pursuit. (Perhaps this was a mistake on my part -- it would have been better to encourage them to disengage and rest).

Once inside, the Warlock discovered Irontooth on round 2, so he still needed 1 round to finish suiting up before he was ready for a fight. The Rogue and Warlock unloaded on him with Vampiric Embrace and Easy Target, and ole Irontooth spent a round slow-charging to get to the PC's. When the Dragonshields arrived on the scene, the Wizard's Sleep put Irontooth to beddie-bye, and the Rogue finished him with a Coup de Grace before Irontooth inflicted even one point of damage (he whiffed with his axe before biting it).

Problem: the Rogue and Warlock were caught by the shiftalicious Dragonshields, and went down fairly quickly. On the other side of the cave, the Warlord, Ranger, and Wizard were taking care of skirmishers and minions.

In the end, it was the lone Wyrmpriest against the Warlord, and the dice turned on him and it was TPK.

 

[CAFRedblade]

I ran the Inside Lair encounter with Irontooth last Wednesday night. Follow up comes this Wednesday. While I didn't get a TPK, the PC's fled and one party member went down ( to be captured by the Kobolds, and sold to the Hobgoblin Slavers in league with Agrias (Agrid the gnome)

So, the quick and dirty setup.
The party consists of
Human Pally
Human Cleric
Human Ranger (melee)
Human Wizard
Halfling Warlock

Using Method 2 for Character Creation.
Quick combat round up,
Ambush 1, party slaughters the ambush, taking some damage, and spending maybe 1 or 2 healing surges. One Kobold Dragonshield escapes.

Ambush 2, Kobold Dragonshield returns with allies to enact revenge. Party takes damage, but with some decent tactics crushes the enemy.

Burial Site: Party scouted the place, saw, several human minions(added 2), the Drakes and the Gnome. Pally and Halfling bluffed their way down, got close, and found Douven in the tent. Gnome ordered their deaths(pally and lock) that's when remaining PC's showed up. They handled themselves well, though the Cleric went down once to a Gnome Xbolt shot as he fled without the mirror.

Lair, Outside: Added one Kobold Piker to the mix. Party takes damage, Hunter and Pally sally forth and take the most damage, but survive with some quick thinking and healing from the Cleric. Minions make a break for the falls but are cut down.

Break, Party decides to rest for 6 hours until the late evening to regain dailies and surges (only three members rest, other two are on patrol/watch)
Unfortunately the Kobolds take notice and prep for the coming assault, still in two waves though.
Lair, Inside: Party enters, sees Minions and Skirmishers at choke points along the back walls, left wall unprotected, Cleric moves first and goes around the corner, forcing early confrontation with second wave.....

Party regroups, kills minions and one Dragonshield. Leaving Skirmishers, Wyrmpriest, Dragonshield and one added Piker.
Looks good at this point, well positioned, decent healing left....
Party members decide to focus fire the Leader, it works, Irontooth goes down in four or so turns. Warlock ability imobilizes IT, and does massive damage( Daily 1), Cleric does some ranged damage, Wizard utilizes Sleep, IT fails. He gets one Frenzy off, dropping the Halfling(but healing from Cleric gets him up) Pally smacks IT before sleep takes effect (Daily 2) and Lock gets off final attack to kill IT.

Problem is, this has left the Hunter and Cleric unprotected from the healthy Kobolds... Skirmishers skewer the melee hunter and drop him, Cleric looks like he is next, healing abilities are pretty much used up at this point.
Party members book it out of the cave, and seeing as IT is down, Kobolds let them...

So, if you want a tougher fight from the get go, have both waves attack at once, no waiting, and feel free to add one extra Kobold type, it's more than enough for 5, 6 or 7 regular PC's for this fight.

Fun thing, the Hunter will be shipped off to the Slavers and the Gnome, who can then be used as trade for the mirror. When the PC's return, I plan on having some re-inforcements from the Dungeon addition Kobold patrol, and I'm having the Wyrmpriest raise/change IronTooth into IronTeeth by the power of Orcus (from the Eberron conversion). Although two of the Skirmishers, the Dragonshield and the Piker will be gone (guarding the Hunter on his way to the Slavers).

Thanks for reading.

 

[eamon]

I'd say a 28 point buy is worth probably 1 level, maybe 2. The extra points are probably giving all your characters a +1 to all their main stats, so they are effectively using skills at +2 levels. However, since they lack the HP, feats and powers, that'd knock it back to only 1 level.

The difference between 28 and 22 point buy is less than the difference between a single 16 and an 18. It's not going to be game-breaking. I'd expect a 17,17,14 distribution instead of a 16,16,14 to be common - i.e. they're about half an attack bonus more effective than otherwise, and are slightly better at secondary stuff. Raising monster defenses occasionally by just 1 should be more than enough to compensate. If your players aren't really optimizers, you won't even need that.

 

[Shabe]

The difference between 28 and 22 point buy is less than the difference between a single 16 and an 18. It's not going to be game-breaking. I'd expect a 17,17,14 distribution instead of a 16,16,14 to be common - i.e. they're about half an attack bonus more effective than otherwise, and are slightly better at secondary stuff. Raising monster defenses occasionally by just 1 should be more than enough to compensate. If your players aren't really optimizers, you won't even need that.

The most minmaxed stats i can think of are the warlock, 18 Con, 18 Cha, 16 Int I think, everyone else is more spread around. Dex seems to be the dump stat of choice, no ranger or rogue, Fighter with 12 Dex is the dex monkey...
Everyone has a Con of at least 14, mostly 16s and higher, so they can go on longer without needing extended rests hopefully. I think they are probably a tad bit better than a normal stat array, but not game breakingly so.

It seems to be more the fact of good rolls and tactics thats making it seem easy.