bedir than
Full Moon Storyteller
Nah, the Orc and every species, needs ways they fit into various cultures, not bound to blood but the behaviors of the people as they live in various places among various peoples
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D&D (2024) How to import "race" flavor into D&D 2024 inclusively
- Thread starter Yaarel
- Start date
Yaarel
🇮🇱He-Mage
Certainly, there are multispecies cultures. These tend to be city cultures, often founded by the Human species.
But there are exceptions, such as mass migrations bringing various species into close contact with each other, whence multispecies rural and nomadic cultures emerging. I tend to view the Grugach culture as a remote nomadic culture of primarily Elf, Orc, and Elf-Orc descendants, surviving together in a harsh environment.
With regard to each species, there needs to be indigenous cultures (if elsewhere native) examples of city, rural, and nomadic. This is realistic. Consider Indigenous Americans comprising nomadic, rural, and city cultures.
Each fantasy species requires examples of these, so as to avoid simplistic racist tropes. When there are indigenous Orcish city cultures, it is clear they are advanced as any reallife Human "civilization". This helps prevent the reallife demonization of "tribes" and "shamans" and "witchdoctors" and other socalled "primitives" and "savages", namely the reallife demonization of indigenous peoples.
bedir than
Full Moon Storyteller
This is an assertion without basis in historical nor D&D lore
Yaarel
🇮🇱He-Mage
Cities like Neverwinter and Waterdeep are examples of multispecies cities founded by Humans that include Orcs.
(Tho Neverwinter seems to have a strong Human-Elf component in its founding.)
Yaarel
🇮🇱He-Mage
The tricky part is where to put an advanced civilization of Orc.
In the default Forgotten Realms setting, an overall impression with some adaptation is:
Relating to the Ogre, the Orc is a Humanoid Giant species that originates northward from the High Forest, perhaps specifically at the Rauvin Mountains. There is a Dead Orc Pass that may specifically be remains of the earliest sacred ancestors. Today the Orc species flourishes across the northwest of the Faerun continent. From periods of ancient migrations, a few disconnected, farflung, locales survive with modest Orcish communities elsewhere in Faerun.
There are canonical "Mountain" cultures of indigenous Orcish nomads, whose territories of extended families and tribal alliances own the Rauvin and Netherese Mountains, as well as areas of mountainous wildernesses elsewhere in Northwest Faerun. These tend to be tent-dwellers, but some families adopt a seasonal rotation of permanent structures.
There are (what I call) "Grasslander" cultures of rural Orcs, especially in the grassland areas west of the High Forest, ranging from Evermoors to High Moor, and including agriculturally arable areas of wetlands, hills, and prairies in between. In this region, Orcs tend to farm, but rarely domesticate animals, and preserve ancient ways of hunting. These often befriend wild animals. The Grasslander Orcs are culturally diverse rural farming communities, who comprise hamlets and villages. Sometimes they join together with nomadic Ogre communities, especially in the Evermoors region. Sometimes they join together with Humans and other Humanoids to form multispecies farming communities, especially in the mainly peaceful regions such as Sumber Hills.
There are "City" Orc cultures in Northwest Faerun, where Orcs immigrate into the cities of Humans and other Humanoids. But these are mainly multispecies cultures. Besides economic requirements to sustain any city, local politics can make one city culture differ substantially from an other city.
Currently in the Forgotten Realms "canonical" setting, there is no known native advanced civilization of Orc. There might be a network of hidden Orcish cities, perhaps underground or in an other plane, such as the Border Ether on route to the Elemental Planes. Or there might be prominent Orc cities outside of the Faerun continent.
Note the Kingdom of the Many-Arrows tribe along the Spine of the World mountain range tends to be an alliance of many tribes, both Mountain and Grasslander. Many of them seem to be in a process of urbanization and political unification, with permanent structures arising among most tribes there. There, the Grasslander culture adapted farming techniques for the harsher arctic and near-arctic environments.
With regard to sacred traditions, the Mountain Orc cultures tend toward indigenous animistic worldviews, with strong ties to surrounding Primal wildlife and plantlife and Elemental mountainscapes and watercourses, with sacred local features. North of the High Forest, these Mountain cultures tend to be fiercely protective of sacred ancestral sites that revere specific natural features. Territorial disputes are ungoing against Dwarf and Human attempts to politically unify the region.
The Grasslander cultures tend toward polytheism, especially in the context of local sacred farming traditions. The cults of Gruumsh and Orcus originate here from the polytheistic Grasslanders, and tend to be viewed as terrorists by other Grasslanders. The Gruumsh fanatics prevail among the citizens of the Many-Arrows Kingdom but are at odds with its government. The Gruumsh fanatics teach that Gruumsh had granted the Orcs the capacity of existential rage, whose ferocity helped free the Orcs from the Giant Ordning. Thus Orcs today would be required to embrace the ways of Gruumsh and his eternal rage, slaughtering, and expansion. Most of the elven communities of the High Forest region view the Cult of Gruumsh as a longterm threat against Elves and other Humanoids, including a threat to Orcs.
The ways of Orcus originate from the animistic Mountain cultures. The heightened awareness of Elementals who are native to the Material Plane and among the features of the landscape and weather patterns, and awareness of the wildlife of animals and plants, as well as of Fey incursions near Crossings, arouses curiosity about the Shadow Crossings, and the remnants of ancestors which are in the Shadowfell. There is a Negative Route of planar crossings (thin places), from the Material Plane via the Shadow Crossing to the Border Shadow, to the Deep Shadow, to various Fiend Astral dominions, to the Astral Plane. This Negative Route facilitates meetings of Orcs, Undead, and those Fiends that are agents of the Fiend Orcus. Mountain cultures tend to make necromancy taboo, but certain families embrace it, and some communities view it as a "left hand" of the natural world.
Most Mountain Orcish cultures focus on the sacred features of the natural world who are their neighbors, and view reincarnation within the Material Plane.
The default setting allows for a highly diverse evolution of Orc cultures. But the existence of an Orcish advanced civilization still requires attention. Generally, the city culture channels its adrenaline rushes toward sports and thrill seeking, while embracing universalist aspirations of positive energy, monism (compare Eberron), and monklike tranquility and academic sagacity (compare Critical Role). The adrenaline rushes need to apply to focus concentration for academic pursuits as well. Individualism in cities invites one Orc to differ noticeably from an other Orc. Thus a city can include enthusiasts of Mountain and Grasslander ways of life.
In the default Forgotten Realms setting, an overall impression with some adaptation is:
Relating to the Ogre, the Orc is a Humanoid Giant species that originates northward from the High Forest, perhaps specifically at the Rauvin Mountains. There is a Dead Orc Pass that may specifically be remains of the earliest sacred ancestors. Today the Orc species flourishes across the northwest of the Faerun continent. From periods of ancient migrations, a few disconnected, farflung, locales survive with modest Orcish communities elsewhere in Faerun.
There are canonical "Mountain" cultures of indigenous Orcish nomads, whose territories of extended families and tribal alliances own the Rauvin and Netherese Mountains, as well as areas of mountainous wildernesses elsewhere in Northwest Faerun. These tend to be tent-dwellers, but some families adopt a seasonal rotation of permanent structures.
There are (what I call) "Grasslander" cultures of rural Orcs, especially in the grassland areas west of the High Forest, ranging from Evermoors to High Moor, and including agriculturally arable areas of wetlands, hills, and prairies in between. In this region, Orcs tend to farm, but rarely domesticate animals, and preserve ancient ways of hunting. These often befriend wild animals. The Grasslander Orcs are culturally diverse rural farming communities, who comprise hamlets and villages. Sometimes they join together with nomadic Ogre communities, especially in the Evermoors region. Sometimes they join together with Humans and other Humanoids to form multispecies farming communities, especially in the mainly peaceful regions such as Sumber Hills.
There are "City" Orc cultures in Northwest Faerun, where Orcs immigrate into the cities of Humans and other Humanoids. But these are mainly multispecies cultures. Besides economic requirements to sustain any city, local politics can make one city culture differ substantially from an other city.
Currently in the Forgotten Realms "canonical" setting, there is no known native advanced civilization of Orc. There might be a network of hidden Orcish cities, perhaps underground or in an other plane, such as the Border Ether on route to the Elemental Planes. Or there might be prominent Orc cities outside of the Faerun continent.
Note the Kingdom of the Many-Arrows tribe along the Spine of the World mountain range tends to be an alliance of many tribes, both Mountain and Grasslander. Many of them seem to be in a process of urbanization and political unification, with permanent structures arising among most tribes there. There, the Grasslander culture adapted farming techniques for the harsher arctic and near-arctic environments.
With regard to sacred traditions, the Mountain Orc cultures tend toward indigenous animistic worldviews, with strong ties to surrounding Primal wildlife and plantlife and Elemental mountainscapes and watercourses, with sacred local features. North of the High Forest, these Mountain cultures tend to be fiercely protective of sacred ancestral sites that revere specific natural features. Territorial disputes are ungoing against Dwarf and Human attempts to politically unify the region.
The Grasslander cultures tend toward polytheism, especially in the context of local sacred farming traditions. The cults of Gruumsh and Orcus originate here from the polytheistic Grasslanders, and tend to be viewed as terrorists by other Grasslanders. The Gruumsh fanatics prevail among the citizens of the Many-Arrows Kingdom but are at odds with its government. The Gruumsh fanatics teach that Gruumsh had granted the Orcs the capacity of existential rage, whose ferocity helped free the Orcs from the Giant Ordning. Thus Orcs today would be required to embrace the ways of Gruumsh and his eternal rage, slaughtering, and expansion. Most of the elven communities of the High Forest region view the Cult of Gruumsh as a longterm threat against Elves and other Humanoids, including a threat to Orcs.
The ways of Orcus originate from the animistic Mountain cultures. The heightened awareness of Elementals who are native to the Material Plane and among the features of the landscape and weather patterns, and awareness of the wildlife of animals and plants, as well as of Fey incursions near Crossings, arouses curiosity about the Shadow Crossings, and the remnants of ancestors which are in the Shadowfell. There is a Negative Route of planar crossings (thin places), from the Material Plane via the Shadow Crossing to the Border Shadow, to the Deep Shadow, to various Fiend Astral dominions, to the Astral Plane. This Negative Route facilitates meetings of Orcs, Undead, and those Fiends that are agents of the Fiend Orcus. Mountain cultures tend to make necromancy taboo, but certain families embrace it, and some communities view it as a "left hand" of the natural world.
Most Mountain Orcish cultures focus on the sacred features of the natural world who are their neighbors, and view reincarnation within the Material Plane.
The default setting allows for a highly diverse evolution of Orc cultures. But the existence of an Orcish advanced civilization still requires attention. Generally, the city culture channels its adrenaline rushes toward sports and thrill seeking, while embracing universalist aspirations of positive energy, monism (compare Eberron), and monklike tranquility and academic sagacity (compare Critical Role). The adrenaline rushes need to apply to focus concentration for academic pursuits as well. Individualism in cities invites one Orc to differ noticeably from an other Orc. Thus a city can include enthusiasts of Mountain and Grasslander ways of life.
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Yaarel
🇮🇱He-Mage
The Grasslander cultures need a polytheism that is free from Gruumsh.
Here is an example, that derives loosely from the Circle of Greater Powers, a specific polytheistic tradition known in Faerun.
The Orcish local traditions differ substantially from locale to locale, but conflative generalization can include the following elements among many Grasslander cultures.
• A deity of lands and skies, Elementals and Giants
• A deity of animal life and hunting
• A deity of plant life, agriculture, crops, peace and prosperity
• A deity of miracles (positive energy, Divine, Primal, and Arcane magics)
• A deity of knowledge, tradition and innovation
• A deity of night, both compassion and justice
• A deity of life, ancestors and descendants
• Gruumsh is a minor deity, a Fiend of rage, and its eternal wars of slaughter and strife
• Orcus is a common taboo, a Fiend of undeath (negative void and necromancy)
Where Gruumsh is normally a minor figure, relating to the angry aspects of adrenaline, the Gruumsh cult elevates him to the only major deity. This Gruumsh sect regards all other Orcish sacred traditions to be false and punishable by death. The adherents of the Gruumsh cult are typically Evil, predatory toward all others, and celebrating horrific murders. Local variations of the Gruumsh cult differ in tendencies toward Lawful group violence and Chaotic individual violence. Most Grasslander and virtually all Mountain cultures view the Gruumsh cultists as a terrorist organization and respond accordingly. However, the cultists have influence in the Many Arrows Kingdom in the far Northwest, as well as in some Orc-Ogre communities in Evermoors. A leader of a local cult typically goes by the title, "Eye of Gruumsh", or the "Eye".
Here is an example, that derives loosely from the Circle of Greater Powers, a specific polytheistic tradition known in Faerun.
The Orcish local traditions differ substantially from locale to locale, but conflative generalization can include the following elements among many Grasslander cultures.
• A deity of lands and skies, Elementals and Giants
• A deity of animal life and hunting
• A deity of plant life, agriculture, crops, peace and prosperity
• A deity of miracles (positive energy, Divine, Primal, and Arcane magics)
• A deity of knowledge, tradition and innovation
• A deity of night, both compassion and justice
• A deity of life, ancestors and descendants
• Gruumsh is a minor deity, a Fiend of rage, and its eternal wars of slaughter and strife
• Orcus is a common taboo, a Fiend of undeath (negative void and necromancy)
Where Gruumsh is normally a minor figure, relating to the angry aspects of adrenaline, the Gruumsh cult elevates him to the only major deity. This Gruumsh sect regards all other Orcish sacred traditions to be false and punishable by death. The adherents of the Gruumsh cult are typically Evil, predatory toward all others, and celebrating horrific murders. Local variations of the Gruumsh cult differ in tendencies toward Lawful group violence and Chaotic individual violence. Most Grasslander and virtually all Mountain cultures view the Gruumsh cultists as a terrorist organization and respond accordingly. However, the cultists have influence in the Many Arrows Kingdom in the far Northwest, as well as in some Orc-Ogre communities in Evermoors. A leader of a local cult typically goes by the title, "Eye of Gruumsh", or the "Eye".
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Yaarel
🇮🇱He-Mage
In Forgotten Realms, Orog culture and possibly Orok culture are advanced civilizations of the Orc species.
The Orogs are the Orcs of an Underdark region below the Anauroch Desert. They descend from an ancient migration of the Skullbiter tribe, a Mountain culture from the World Spine. Orogs built numerous Underdark cities in volcanic caverns that are lush with fungal life, which they farm. They are known for advanced metallurgy, especially their magic greatswords, greataxes, and spiky armor. There is a network of traderoutes among their cities and elsewhere. Today, there are also Orog cities on the surface, such as one near the ruins of elven Myth Drannor in Cormanthor by the Sea of Fallen Stars. Some Orog communities sail the Astral Plane in spelljammers. In the Nether Mountains north from the High Forest, relationships between a local imperialist Orog outpost and the resistant nomadic Mountain Orcs are uneasy.
The Orok is an Orc culture that remains obscure to the sages of Faerun. The hidden elven city of Callidae is known to include Orok citizens, perhaps a thousand or so, among the city population of about 50,000, whose 40,000 are Elves of the Aeven-drow culture. Callidae takes pains to stay unknown, and their exact location remains uncertain, except to be in the arctic glaciers of northernmost Faerun. Judging by the report of minority populations at Callidae − Orok Orcs, Ulutian Humans, and Kurit Dwarves − namely all arctic populations, the Orok are likely an arctic Orc civilization, who are east from the World Spine, perhaps in the arctic glaciers along the Ice Spires mountain range.
The Ice Spires encircle a geothermically warm lowland that is remote from the rest of Faerun. The lowland inhabitants are the Human Kingdom of Hartsvale, and including Firbolg citizens. The Humans are an Illuskan culture. In earlier times, the Humans violently conquered the warmer land from the various Giant species there. Today, there is an uneasy peace between the Humans in the lowlands and the Giants in the surrounding mountains.
The Orok civilization of Orcs is possibly advanced, coexisting among the other Giants along the Ice Spires. Glacial Frost Giants, volcanic Fire Giants, Ogres, and Underdark Fomorians, each developed civilizations with various magics there. The Ice Spire culture of Ogre tends to be cave-dwellers known for primal magic and mastery of runes. The Orok civilation of Orcs, who are Humanoid Giants, would be there in the Ice Spire mountain range, known to the other Giants, but with little or no contact with the Humans in Hartsvale, thus remaining incognito to the rest of Faerun. While other Giant species previously inhabited the lowlands as well, the Oroks were always only in the mountains of the Ice Spires. The Orok would remain independent of the Giant Ordning, but with cooperative relations with the Ice Spire Giants.
The Human royal family of Hartsvale is rumored to have partial Giant ancestry.
Here is a link to a huge, official, detailed, map of NW Faerun. It is from 2015 Wizards of the Coast for the 5e Sword Coast regional setting of Forgotten Realms. Most of the Orcs on planet Toril are in the northern area of this map, inhabiting north and west from the High Forest (in green). The Kingdom of Many Arrows is northmost toward the center, and Ice Spires are the entire mountain range east from it surrounding Hartsvale. (The Eastern Ice Spires are under the High Ice.) Anauroch is the vast desert (in yellow) where the Orog civilization thrives in its Underdark. The Rauvin Mountains (unlabled), where the Orc species likely originates, are the smaller mountain range north from the Nether Mountains, which is northeast from the High Forest.
The Orogs are the Orcs of an Underdark region below the Anauroch Desert. They descend from an ancient migration of the Skullbiter tribe, a Mountain culture from the World Spine. Orogs built numerous Underdark cities in volcanic caverns that are lush with fungal life, which they farm. They are known for advanced metallurgy, especially their magic greatswords, greataxes, and spiky armor. There is a network of traderoutes among their cities and elsewhere. Today, there are also Orog cities on the surface, such as one near the ruins of elven Myth Drannor in Cormanthor by the Sea of Fallen Stars. Some Orog communities sail the Astral Plane in spelljammers. In the Nether Mountains north from the High Forest, relationships between a local imperialist Orog outpost and the resistant nomadic Mountain Orcs are uneasy.
The Orok is an Orc culture that remains obscure to the sages of Faerun. The hidden elven city of Callidae is known to include Orok citizens, perhaps a thousand or so, among the city population of about 50,000, whose 40,000 are Elves of the Aeven-drow culture. Callidae takes pains to stay unknown, and their exact location remains uncertain, except to be in the arctic glaciers of northernmost Faerun. Judging by the report of minority populations at Callidae − Orok Orcs, Ulutian Humans, and Kurit Dwarves − namely all arctic populations, the Orok are likely an arctic Orc civilization, who are east from the World Spine, perhaps in the arctic glaciers along the Ice Spires mountain range.
The Ice Spires encircle a geothermically warm lowland that is remote from the rest of Faerun. The lowland inhabitants are the Human Kingdom of Hartsvale, and including Firbolg citizens. The Humans are an Illuskan culture. In earlier times, the Humans violently conquered the warmer land from the various Giant species there. Today, there is an uneasy peace between the Humans in the lowlands and the Giants in the surrounding mountains.
The Orok civilization of Orcs is possibly advanced, coexisting among the other Giants along the Ice Spires. Glacial Frost Giants, volcanic Fire Giants, Ogres, and Underdark Fomorians, each developed civilizations with various magics there. The Ice Spire culture of Ogre tends to be cave-dwellers known for primal magic and mastery of runes. The Orok civilation of Orcs, who are Humanoid Giants, would be there in the Ice Spire mountain range, known to the other Giants, but with little or no contact with the Humans in Hartsvale, thus remaining incognito to the rest of Faerun. While other Giant species previously inhabited the lowlands as well, the Oroks were always only in the mountains of the Ice Spires. The Orok would remain independent of the Giant Ordning, but with cooperative relations with the Ice Spire Giants.
The Human royal family of Hartsvale is rumored to have partial Giant ancestry.
Here is a link to a huge, official, detailed, map of NW Faerun. It is from 2015 Wizards of the Coast for the 5e Sword Coast regional setting of Forgotten Realms. Most of the Orcs on planet Toril are in the northern area of this map, inhabiting north and west from the High Forest (in green). The Kingdom of Many Arrows is northmost toward the center, and Ice Spires are the entire mountain range east from it surrounding Hartsvale. (The Eastern Ice Spires are under the High Ice.) Anauroch is the vast desert (in yellow) where the Orog civilization thrives in its Underdark. The Rauvin Mountains (unlabled), where the Orc species likely originates, are the smaller mountain range north from the Nether Mountains, which is northeast from the High Forest.
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Scott Christian
Hero
This right here is one of the divisions that people come across.
Is travel easy? Do people just leave their homeland? Are there a bunch of places that have internet-like capabilities so people understand one another's culture? Is there a lot of heterogeneous areas, where species mix fluidly?
Or...
Is travel difficult? Do people tend to stick to their homeland? Is knowledge of other cultures limited? Are there only a few heterogeneous cultures, and the rest are isolated and homogeneous?
I think questions like these are the foundation to any species talk. Saying, "not bound in blood" is simply a way of saying not growing up around their old culture, since so much of it is passed down. Will an orc's rage still exist if they grew up with elves in some isolated forest/fey realm, or is it bound in blood?
The old nature vs. nurture rears its head here. And for most species feats, we should probably assume nurture is the stronger force. So, the above questions are relevant. If we assume nature (or a specific god) is the tour de force, then there is a strong chance the second set of questions are more relavent.
bedir than
Full Moon Storyteller
Considering the amount of real-world transit over the pre-Industrial millennia, I'm fairly certain that peoples of different D&D species would be able to travel. Our incompetent ancestors managed to get spices, silks, fish and birds from 1000s of miles away
Scott Christian
Hero
I agree. But there are two caveats:
- It was a select few that travelled. The broad expanse of people did not travel.
- There were not literal monsters roaming the countryside. No one taking the spice road was worried about griffons, giants, or some bullete coming from the underground to eat everyone.
But I do agree, you would have travelers. One of the reasons merchants had so many stories.
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