How to influence a group's rules usage without alienating them?

[Dice4Hire]

I would talk with the one who invited you privately and ask what the odds are of changing the group's mind. If it is low, I would not try.

Or you could consider buying a book or two the price of admission into the group. If it is a good group, it is not much of a cost. There must be cheaper book out there than full cover price.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Does it mean anything distinct from, "I want them to?" What is the upside for them? Do they want to change? If they do, will they be happier?

They might be. Who knows?

There's something to be said for "Don't rock the boat," but there's also something to be said for not being a yes-man. If Kzach's potential new group have their reasons for requiring books, that's cool. But maybe the group is just carrying on a tradition from previous editions where different sources have vastly different mechanics and power levels, and where there is no CB to help. Maybe a previous DM started the tradition, and the others follow it simply out of habit.

In any case, there's no harm in saying "Well gee, I wish I could play with you guys but I guess I can't because I don't have any books." And/or "If you ever want a DM, let me know." Being polite can be surprisingly effective.

 

[Starman]

Tell them often and loudly that they are partaking of badwrongfun, but that if they are willing to see the light and convert to your way of thinking they might - might! - be able to have fun the right and proper way.

If that doesn't work, kill them and take their stuff.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you really want to play with this group, don't look at it as buying a 4Ed book you'll never use, look at it as an investment in friendship.

Back in the 1990s (IOW, pre- a lot of digital conveniences), I joined a group of gamers that I stayed with for my entire stay in Austin. Great guys. But they played a LOT of GURPS...not my favorite game by any stretch of imagination.

But I bought a GURPS rulebook (and Martial arts sourcebook) because I knew I'd be using it a lot. If nothing else, I'd be able to use it to find the answers to questions without disturbing others while they were trying to do something in-game.

(Which raises a question for me- how are you going to access the rules at the table without a book? Do you have a laptop with a wi-fi hotspot or some such? Do you expect the host to let you log onto his wi-fi? Does he HAVE wi-fi? Or are you going to expect others to know the rules for the special maneuvers you try which may not be on your character sheet, like a Charge or Grapple?)

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd ask if perhaps the "you can only use it if you own it" rule might be changed to "you can only use it if someone in the group owns it". This is our groups rule, and it primarily exists so that we can look up rules at the table. That pretty much covers your primary issue (you don't want to buy books).

I'm not sure how errata comes into that - do they play with some sort of "no errata" rule? Because that's not implied in the basic "you need to own the book before you can use the rule" rule. Again, our group has a "we should own the printed material before we use it" rule, but we apply errata to that.

 

[Starfox]

Social Contract is the name of the game here. But such contracts can often be fairly flexible.

I can completely understand if the group does not wish to bother with errata - much of which is intrusive, annoying, and changes established character builds. If they are not using the character builder, not using the errata, and are not a group of min/maxers i see no problem. But, since the errata is generally a set of nerfs, if you want to use errata/character builder I don't see much trouble with that either.

Ask nicely if DDI can count as owning the books that someone else owns, then mark these books as legitimate sources in the (pre-essentials) character builder and you should be ok.

I can see how a book-based group would not want you to use books that nobody owns - if they cannot look it up in the book they don't want it in their game. And if a rules conflict pops up and it is errata vs non-errata, be prepared to back down and use the non-erratae'd version.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

The group, as an existing entity and with this defined as a group rule, has probably spent some thought on this. The will have their reasons for their decision. Expecting them to change their social contract with your arrival is, frankly speaking, pretentious.

If the guys are open to it you might start a new discussion on this topic, perhaps starting with the GM before you join the crew. At least you'll learn their reasons, even if you don't succeed in influencing the others.

The other way would be to try to reach an agreement that you might make you character(s) your own way. Propose to use the Character Manager and print out an extra version of the Power Cards for the DM so that he can easily reference it during play.

If one of your character's Powers is the same as that of another character in the group, but a different version of it - i.e. it has been erratad since its original release - you'll have to reach an agreement on that Power with the DM and the other player. You either may use a different version or, more probably, agree to use the original version for this power.

It all depends on how eagerly you want to join this group, but it's definitely your task to adapt to their style.

 

[wedgeski]

Looking at it from the other side, if I invited someone new to my game and they immediately started arguing for changes to such a fundamental table rule, *especially* after being informed about it beforehand, I would not be inclined to have that player back. Unfortunately you have much more to lose than they do.

If you feel you must at least try, for the love of Gygax do it *off table* in email or on the phone with the DM or organiser.

 

[S'mon]

"Now, usually what I'd do in this situation would be to take over DM'ing of their group and then subsequently alienate each of them, one by one, until the group entirely dissolves or I just get tired of their incompetence and lack of insight into my brilliance..."

I don't think you should be inflicting yourself on real people. Couldn't you just stick to videogames & posting on message boards?

 

[Kzach]

In the end, I secretly hope you do play with them. They might come here to complain about you and that'll give me some good reading.

It's quite possible they're already members; I have no idea. If they're not, or even if they are, I'll make sure to let them know about this discussion so that they can comment and entertain you.

I'd ask if perhaps the "you can only use it if you own it" rule might be changed to "you can only use it if someone in the group owns it". This is our groups rule, and it primarily exists so that we can look up rules at the table. That pretty much covers your primary issue (you don't want to buy books).

I'm not sure how errata comes into that - do they play with some sort of "no errata" rule? Because that's not implied in the basic "you need to own the book before you can use the rule" rule. Again, our group has a "we should own the printed material before we use it" rule, but we apply errata to that.

Errata comes into it because it makes using the book useless. And because I'm also an advocate of using errata (I believe that, on the whole, it improves the game), I don't like to buy books I'll never actually use.

I don't think you should be inflicting yourself on real people. Couldn't you just stick to videogames & posting on message boards?

Then where would I get all this material to give you, the poster, the drama you crave?