How to influence a group's rules usage without alienating them?

[Umbran]

Ladies and gentlemen, if you want to continue being personally insulting to each other, we have banhammers enough for all of you.

You all know better. Cut it out. If you keep it up, you are apt to be given a vacation without further warning or explanation.

 

[knightofround]

To the OP,

I'm sure you'll be fine! In my experience, the "you can only use it if you own it" rule is used for one of two reasons:

1. To limit power creep
2. To reduce overall game complexity

In either case, I think the best solution is to explain that you own a DDI subscription, and then limit yourself to choosing character options from the core books. Or ask the DM which material he'd allow you to pick stuff from. (suggest stuff in the other players books)

Honestly I don't see how this could be a big problem. If you're going to refuse to game a group because they won't let you use a feat from Dragon #8675309, then you've got bigger problems to deal with

 

[delericho]

So, if all goes well, which with me it usually doesn't, but if it does then I'll be joining a new group sometime in the next couple of weeks. Unfortunately, they use a very limited set of rules and have a basic agreement that you can only use it if you own it.

This conflicts with me on several levels.

For one thing, I utterly refuse to buy hard copies of 4e materials. I will subscribe to DDI and that will be my sole source of 4e material.

A DDI sub should cover you for the "you can only use it if you own it" part of their rules.

As for the limits as to the available ruleset, that shouldn't be a problem - get the DM to give you a list of available sources, and set up your Character Builder to only show options from those sources. Done.

Now, there may be a problem if you're not willing to accept their limitations on which books to use, in which case I would say you either need to accept their rule or leave the group. If you expect them to open the game up to everything just to suit you, then I'm afraid you're the one being unreasonable.

There may also be a potential problem if they insist on using the old books "as published" (that is, no errata), and especially if they won't accept that your character is "close enough". (Potentially, the problem also exists if they don't accept the DDI as being enough for "you own it"...)

In this case, I would say that they're probably being unreasonable. Still, the reality is that your choices remain: accept their rules, or leave the group.

As far as persuading them around to your point of view (that they should play using the latest errata, that the DDI is definitive, and that they should play "anything goes"), that's down to tact and diplomacy, same as anything else.

 

[the Jester]

First off, good on you for making a wise decision, especially when you looked at it from the other side.

That said, this:

You grandstand and make a point of it during the game, interrupting the flow of the game and killing the DM's momentum, authority and everyone's immersion and trust in the DM's decisions and rules knowledge. It's disrespectful to not only the DM, but everyone at the table. And it's clear that you do it often enough the people refer to you for rules questions, which means you have no respect for the DM or the other people at the table. You just want to be the centre of attention and the authority at the table.

...is absolutely not the same as a respectful rules question at the table.

There is a middle ground between saving every question for the end of the session and being the jerk you describe. Sometimes, it's very good when a player brings up such a thing with the dm; there have been times when weird corner cases came up that I started to make a ruling on, and had a player point out there was another thing that happened 9 months ago that seemed to be similar, except that I ruled the other way. I want my players to point these things out so that I can be more consistent and a better dm. It doesn't undermine me; I'm a fairly authoritarian kind of dm, and being open to questions has never cost me the ability to run my game how I want at all.

Now, an interrupting, won't-leave-it-when-it's-time-to-leave-it player is a different thing entirely- but not all rules questions are like that. YMMV, of course.

 

[Kzach]

Now, an interrupting, won't-leave-it-when-it's-time-to-leave-it player is a different thing entirely- but not all rules questions are like that. YMMV, of course.

I agree. My reaction was to the former type of player. The type who does it consistently throughout every session. The type who, even after the group as a whole has confronted them on it, still keeps doing it.

Part of my vitriol comes from the fact that it is a common trait amongst gamers and one that I have experienced far too many times. They want all the power, all the glory, all the attention of DM'ing, and yet none of the responsibility, effort and difficulties of it, on top of wanting to play.

 

[WHW4]

OP, I'm not going to read 6 pages of people telling you to suck it up.

I think you're right, myself. Buying the 4th edition books is a complete waste, as it will quickly be post-it noted to hell and back with eighty-bajillion changes. I bought like three of the things when 4th first dropped and they do indeed gather dust on the shelf.

All the stuff you need for your character is on your sheet most times, and we use one of the many "4e crib sheet" hand-outs that people have done up for the other rules like conditions/bonuses to attack, etc.

"Own it or you don't get to play it" made more sense pre-Digital Age, but that was then, and this is now.

I suggest thus: sit in on a few sessions, get the vibe of the group, let them know you spend your money on the CB/Compendium as it provides about 99% of what you need and you cannot keep up with all the rules content otherwise; and if they can't understand that - they are morons. There I said it. Don't even waste time trying to DM for them because I can guarantee you won't be in their little club of "well we bought all this material so we have to have it this way otherwise we feel cheated."

The group could buy one account, split the difference and pay like 11 bucks each for a year's worth of updated material. If they can't see the sense in that there's no helping them.

"Oh, but I like the way the book feels, I can take it with me blah blah blah...."

I can count how many times I've seen someone walking around with a D&D book on one hand. Oh wait, no I can't because I've never seen it. Everyone and their kid brother's cousin Jimmy owns a smart phone, or they will be shamed into it eventually by their peers so they are fighting a losing battle there.

I can also tell you one more practical reason to ditch the dead trees: table space. We have a PHB and a couple MMs on the table during play and that's it. Guess what happened? We stopped looking everything up and started playing our freaking characters. The books aren't there to distract everyone. We have what we need on the sheet, as the Dicelords intended it.

Fight the good fight, brother.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I can count how many times I've seen someone walking around with a D&D book on one hand. Oh wait, no I can't because I've never seen it. Everyone and their kid brother's cousin Jimmy owns a smart phone, or they will be shamed into it eventually by their peers so they are fighting a losing battle there.

Different strokes for different folks: I'm an über book man among book men...most of whom are professional computer programmers with laptops & smartphones. Heck, I'm writing this from my iPod Touch, which also houses my PCs.

And there is at least one DDI account in the group.

But we still primarily use the books at the table.

 

[SteveC]

So here's my thought. It might sound crazy, but that's just how I roll...

Why not talk to them about and be honest? I mean say something like:

I don't plan to go crazy making these uber-optimized characters, but I just can't see buying all of the books at the moment: I just won't use them and they'll just collect dust. Plus, with the DDI, there are so many rules errata that I'm going to be relying on the online stuff anyway.

I mean I understand not wanting to have someone cherry-pick rules, but 4E really encourages this with having everything available through the DDI. I think you can totally do this without coming off sounding like a jerk.

Then, if they don't want to do that, go with an Essentials character and only use one book: you'll do just fine. Over time, once you become a regular, I don't think anyone will really care...