How to make 'being surrounded by enemy crossbowmen' deadlier?

KrazyHades said:
The PCs then recklessly attack. In response to their attempt, the crossbowmen fire, each PC targeted and hit by 3 bolts.
This is where the guards go wrong. They should all target just one member of the party, in an attempt to force a massive damage save. A 5%, at least, chance of death for one of their number might give the PCs more pause than a harmless collection of pinprick fleshwounds.

Edit: oh, it's 50 points from a single attack, not in a single round? Never mind then. Maybe I'm thinking of some variant rule somewhere.
 

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KrazyHades said:
As a DM, I have a lot of trouble with this concept.

The PCs are surrounded in a surprise attack. They are wearing no armor, and their weapons are sheathed. Twelve crossbowmen have their deadly weapons trained on the hearts of the PCs.

Things seem tense. Then, out of game, one player says "wait, dude, crossbows are barely going to hurt us. We're tenth level."

The PCs then recklessly attack. In response to their attempt, the crossbowmen fire, each PC targeted and hit by 3 bolts. But of course, this is DnD, and even the wizard can stand up to that.

Would I be remiss for allowing coup-de-gras against the PCs for the crossbowmen in this situation? Note that the example I used I made up on the spot, but the fact that it would take an incredibly powerful set of magical crossbows to make this dangerous bothers me. I think that these situations should be deadly, as long as you tell the PCs (out of game) that this is extremely dangerous and that they shouldn't act rashly.

What do you think? Should PCs be able to just shrug off being peppered with crossbow bolts that have been trained on their throats and eyes and hearts by would-be capturers? The historical crossbow was able to punch right through plate armor. I don't think that flesh would stand up to it, especially not if you're specifically preparing to kill the PCs if they make any movement.
Wait...am I cracking up, or did you (or someone else) post this exact story a few months back? :confused:
 

Thurbane said:
Wait...am I cracking up, or did you (or someone else) post this exact story a few months back? :confused:

I've never posted it, and I haven't read it on EnWorld before, but I wouldn't be surprised. Surrounded by and then charging mook crossbowmen happens to every party once in a while.

EDIT: E6 sounds interesting. After my current campaign is done, I might run an E6 one. I need some gritty fantasy to spice up my High Fantasy and my Sword and Sorcery type games.
 
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You shouldn't forget to add a cricumstance bonus to attack rolls similar to a teamwork benefit for your squad of crossbowmen firing a volley of bolts in unison.
 
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Hmm reading between the other posts,
having 12 low level thieves (3rd) with human bane arrows, readying to shoot the first human that moves - by readying during a surprise round they should all catch the target flat-footed
(unless I misunderstand the rules)

Dx 14, point blank shot. +2 BAB,+2dx,+1PBS,+2 bane,+1 enchantment, +1 bless (they have a cleric nearby right?) = +9(1d8+2+2d6bane,+2d6SA) 20 damage per hit. Figure poor AC level+10 (20), good AC = level +20 (30). If the wizard moves first he is a pin cushion, if the monk, anyone with uncanny dodge, or guy in plate moves first, he might get a fleshwound.

yup, not a challenge. This is also pushing my disbelief for the amount of training and magic items and guard unit should have.

Of course if they are the elite archery guard of the emperor, feel free to give them all +4 levels of fighter, 16 dx, weapon specialization strength longbows and poisoned arrows. When the party can only take down 1/2 of them in the first round, the rest move to rapid shot on the 2nd round.

In E6 threads there was a lot of discussion as to what level D&D leaves most fantasy literature behind, and separates heroes forever from normal men, somewhere between 6th and 8th level was the conclusion. Black Company d20 supposedly has ambush rules that assume nearly anyone can be hid hard and fast and taken out. I don't know the specifics.
 

Andion Isurand said:
You shouldn't forget to add a cricumstance bonus to attack rolls as a teamwork benefit for your squad of crossbowmen firing a volley of bolts in unison.

It's easy when you just ignore the rules! :)
 

Even at 6th level, a squad of crossbowmen is hardly going to have an autowin.

Personally, it doesn't sound like a problem that a group of heroes (on the verge of being legendary by the basic assumptions) can easily sweep aside ordinary guards with only a 3 to 1 numerical advantage. That's less like a threat, and more like an insult - you can't treat powerful adventurers just like neophytes back from their first skirmish against goblins and expect things to work out.

If you want PCs to take the situation seriously, you need A) different rules, B) better guys, C) more guys (often, lots more guys), or D) a secondary threat - the problem isn't beating the Xbowmen, it's dealing with the people upset by your defeat of the soldiers. Or you can accept that certain situations aren't going to fly like that. If the PCs know that those 12 guys aren't a threat, then some of those guys might know that some people are just good enough that the squad isn't going to stand a chance (depending on reputation, obvious displays of power, etc). Threats might not always be the best approach.
 

shilsen said:
You don't even have to go that far. A bunch of 5th lvl NPCs could make life a little miserable for the PCs in that situation.

For example, let's make them Ftr2/Rog3s and, since they know they're going after the PCs, say they prepped accordingly with potions of Cat's Grace (putting them at a 20 Dex) and have the right Bane bolts. Since they apparently surprised the PCs, they can ready, and would be able to fire when the PCs decided to go. With W. Focus and Point Blank Shot, they're firing at +14 (+4 BAB, +5 Dex, +3 enhancement, +2 from feats) versus unarmored (according to the OP) and flatfooted PCs, doing damage of 1d8 + 4 + 2d6 bane + 2d6 sneak attack (22.5 pts of damage each). Against unarmored PCs they'll be hitting most of the time, which means if each PC takes 3 bolts he's starting the fight with nearly 70 points of damage on average. If the archers are instead smart enough to focus on 2-3 PCs, chances are you have a couple of dead PCs at this point.

And that's without me trying to get really nasty. You can do most of the stuff the OP wants, but you can't threaten 10th lvl PCs with 1st level mooks. And you shouldn't be able to, any more than Superman should be worried about a big guy with a crowbar.
Yupp, pretty much how I'd do it. Let's get nasty.

Halfling ftr/rogs with Crossbow Sniper (PHB2) for 60ft sneak attacks and half dex mod to damage, the feat from Bo9S that gives +1d6 damage in the first round of combat, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload. All well hidden (take 20). That's Dex 22 with potions of Cat's Grace, +3 to damage, +6 to hit, bane arrows, +2 from the bard leader to hit and damage, +2d6 or +3d6 damage due to sneak attack and that First Strike...

Some melee brutes around the party and one speaker who might just be a bard/marshal (HASTE!!! or warblade1/bard8 with Haste and Song of the White Raven) or dragonshaman. A cleric with Bless in the background and two level 5 wizards with fireball and stinking cloud.

Say, if you have 5 PCs, take 10 mooks level 4-5 with one level 8 leader and you can have a lot of fun. Usually I give the mooks less wealth for their level and lower the CR accordingly.

All the PCs see is one guy on the street with two bodyguards and two more bodyguards left and right of the street walking casually into view (out of full cover). The speaker tells them they're in Point Blank range and asks nicely to drop their weapons.

In my games, you're out of mookrealm with level 5.
 
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KrazyHades said:
The point isn't so much the weapons themselves as it is that if you are unarmored and surrounded by surprise you should not just be able to blithely rush into combat.
I'd guess that 10th level D&D characters are not the sort of characters you are interested in playing/running for. Either cap games at lower levels, give out less XP or change to a more deadly system (GURPS isn't bad, IIRC). I believe a significant of the problem is a difference between what you are expecting (seems like relatively low power fantasy) and what the game gives you (medium to high power fantasy).
 

Surrounded by enemy crossbowmen being deadly - sounds like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay to me. No parries, no dodge rolls, just a ranged percentile roll and serious damage. (Unless all PCs are decked with heavy armor)

Or maybe 1-3rd level D&D heroes, I guess. But beyond that, it's impossible without some special house rules.

Maybe something like this:
From time to time, a situation needs to be resolved in a way not following the normal rules.
Scenarios might be capturing PCs, hostage situations or duels. (typically anything that bypasses hit points)

In these scenarios, the DM pulls says "Dramatic Scene: <enter descriptive title here>".
Rules change: it boils down to a few checks and rolls by NPCs and PCs.
Basic framework:
- Roll Initiative:
- Everyone declares his intention for this round, from lowest initiative count to highest. (obviously, the higher ones can react to the intentions of the lower ones. Players and NPCs may roll bluff, hide, move silently, or sleight of hand to conceal actions, and opposing characters sense motive, listen or spot to reveal the true intention. (might also add rule for intimidation)
- Everyone resolves his action, from highest initiative count to lowest. Special: The DM may choose one roll (attack, save, skill check) to gain a bonus equal to the difference between the "normal" encounter level and the party level - if the encounter level is below the party level. If the encounter level is above party level, the party instead gets the difference as a bonus to one of their rolls.
Action resolution should now ignore most of the usual rules (hit points specifically)
- Reroll initiative for the next round. If a combat was started in the last round, the DM can decide to just continue regularly.

Example - 8 Crossbowman threatening the PCs:
Roll initiative as usual. Let's assume the PCs have different initiatives, some before, some after the crossbowmen. The lowest PC now has to decide - do I want to attack/flee? Depending on his decisions, the other PCs can attempt to form their actions - do they aid? do they try to avoid the worst? Should someone try to rely on diplomacy to stall the situation. The NPCs could choose to attack the PCs, or to demoralize them further...
Actions are resolved. Any attack (even with a spell or device) is resolved as a coup-de-grace (regardless of range), except that anyone failing his save is just reduced to -1 hit points and dying (if worse then the effect of the damage), as well as dazed for one round (in case someone heals him). Sneak Attack only applies if a target is flanked or flat-footed, though.

Example - Hostage Situation:
Basically as above, with the special notion that the goal of the PCs will probably be to kill the hostage taker, while the hostage taker is only interesting in taking the life of the hostage. Therefore, attacks on anyone not a hostage and not a hostage-taker can be resolved normal, but the attack on the hostage is fully deadly (as a normal coup-de-grace).

---
For every dramatic encounter, characters get a "drama point", which means that they automatically get XP as if they just had beaten an encounter of their party level (in addition to the normal encounter). In addition it can be used to slightly alter the outcome of another dramatic scene (like determining that a hostage wasn't killed, merely severely injured and needs immediate medical attention, that a captured PC manages to hide an important item or ally to help him escape later, or whatever you want.)
You might also allow PCs to resist dramatic scenes in the first place, by rolling a level (maybe charisma-based?) check against the normal level of the encounter and spending a drama point. (point is only spend if check succeeds). PCs might also initiate a dramatic scene (taking their own hostage or just to increase the stakes of an encounter)
 
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