how to play alignment convincingly

[Storminator]

I agree with Rashak Mani

I have to disagree with the statement that most people are good.

I think most of the world is pretty lawful good.

I think most people are closer to neutral evil. (Is stupid an alignment?) Now I’m not talking good and evil in the Christian sense. I’m talking good as in being nice and courteous to your fellow human beings.

I don't think politeness really counts. Stories are full of polite evil people. And rudeness doesn't mean evil.

Most people aren’t. (Unless someone is watching) Most people will try to get away with as much as possible as long as it doesn’t make the Jones talk. I try to be good but honestly I’m closer to lawful evil. Hey I’m working on it. I can’t say it enough, most people are disgusting, petty, conniving, who only help each other when they are ganging up on a common threat. (Read Thomas Hobbes Leviathan.) Or when the proverbial S#@T hits the fan and they need help.
Now there are truly good people in the world. They were the ones in the back of the room crying when Iraq was invaded, because of the innocent people that would be hurt. But you didn’t hear them over your cheering or jeering. Those are the only people in the world that I admire.

But were those same people crying every single day Iraq wasn't invaded, because of all the innocent people that were hurt every day?

I know this was off topic but after reading that everyone seemed to think people are good at heart. I started to foam at the mouth and I had to say some thing. Remember every time some one comes along and points out that we really should be nicer to each other we generally kill them. Gandhi, Jesus, Martin Luther King. No people are not Nice or Good.

Z

Those people you mentioned wanted much more than mere politeness, they were serious politcal movers and shakers. They were killed because they were forcing the world to fundamentally change, and the world hates that.

Most folks just go about their day, doing what they have to, occasionally doing what they want to. If you think society isn't lawful, open your phone book to "Lawyers" and see how many live near you. If you think society isn't good, see how far your house is from the nearest charity.

Most of the world is LG.

PS

 

[Desdichado]

I have to agree with Storminator. As chic as it is to be all cynical and everything, I have to admit that my personal experience doesn't validate that viewpoint.

 

[Rashak Mani]

To be Evil you've gotta take action on that selfishness, and that action's gotta hurt somebody. If our society were Evil on the whole, there'd be a lot more major hurts getting passed around.

There are some greedy, selfish folks out there, sure. But there are also lots fo rather nice folks. Thus, on the average, folks are pretty neutral.

Why does Evil have to hurt someone ? Especially if they can get away with more by collaborating or using other people ? This is balanced by a heavy lawful aspect... you break the law your in deep sh*t. The US isnt the only greedy country of course... I think Evil is evil with a small "e". People don't hurt others for no reason... they might do it for kicks if they can get away with it... but not out of the blue.

Still different aspects of Lawful kind of contrast too... for example the latino stereotype is very family oriented (Lawful) but in South America the law is something to be bent not obeyed many times. (non-lawful). Still overall most accept the status quo. (Lawful)

Humans need to collaborate and that gives us a strong lawful tendency... thou naturally we can have any alignment for any given situation. I am way more Lawful in some aspects and close to chaotic in others... good and evil axis the same thing.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Storminator... how much of these charity things are socially motivated ? How many are about feeling good about yourself ? Are they the rule or the exception ? Religion plays a factor here... are people being charitable because their mythology induces them to "buy" better chances of going to heaven or being "good" ?

I have seen many instances of people who really want to help... but I have seen many doing it for various other reasons... and then there is the rest of the passive population not involved. What good is it that a major Businessman donates money to charity if his profits come from pollution, low wages and bad economic practices ?

Still... we can LE and LG in the same day easily... and one reason why alignment is only a broad guideline to behaviour of PC's ideally.

 

[Umbran]

Wonky double-posting thingie. My apologies.

 

[Umbran]

Why does Evil have to hurt someone ? Especially if they can get away with more by collaborating or using other people ?

I kinda thought doing harm to others was part of the definition of evil. Whether you collaborate or not isn't the issue. If nobody gets harmed (using a broad definition of "harm", to include non-physical hurts), how can one say there's been any wrongdoing? How evil can you be if, in your life, your actions have never hurt a fly? The PHB may be a tad simplistic, but it says, "'Evil' implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others." I mean, imagine the conversation:

PC: Alright, so you're the BBEG, yes?
BBEG: Yes! YES! I am evil! Evil! EVIL!
PC: Uh, yeah. But one problem. Through this whole "adventure" we haven't gotten any evidence that you've done anything wrong. Have you tortured anyone?
BBEG: Well, no.
PC: Stolen anything?
BBEG: No.
PC: Caused any pain and suffering? Hurt anyone in any way at all?
BBEG: Well, unless you count bringing a rather dry potato salad to the last church picnic, no.

See what I mean? How Evil can your Evil guy be if he hasn't actually done any harm to anyone?

One of the common definitions of Chaotic Neutral and/or Good follows the "An it harm none, do what thou wilt. That is the whole of the law." line. Thus, if it harms noone, it isn't evil.

 

[Rashak Mani]

I think that a very simplistic view of evil... and thou certainly evil can hurt and harm others... they don't necessarily have to. Now if you include robbed and cajoled as hurt... then we might be getting somewhere. People who pay extemely low wages to ignorant peasants are evil ? People who lie and deceive are evil ? If a ruler convinces people into a false crusade is he not evil too ?

What if you see someone having a heart attack... and don't bother to help ? You didn't hurt them... but they will die nonetheless.

If a person is very greedy... to the point of caring nothing for their fellow humans. I think they are evil.

 

[Rashak Mani]

I might add that I have played a few "Evil" campaigns... where most of my "evil" companions were mostly sadistic and bloody. Now the few that stood out were like me... "evil" more as regards individualism and greed. My character would have fit into the 21st Century with little trouble in my opinion. Probably a candidate for CEO job. He wasn't a rabid blood seeking monster... in fact quite civilized and a beleiver in the system. Really lawful. When a good monster we met implied that we might be evil I was quite insulted... naturally I wouldn't call myself a hero... not most times... but EVIL !!! How offensive. (We did kill him for his troubles...)

The way I roleplayed him was extremely consistent and beleivable too.

 

[Storminator]

Storminator... how much of these charity things are socially motivated ? How many are about feeling good about yourself ? Are they the rule or the exception ? Religion plays a factor here... are people being charitable because their mythology induces them to "buy" better chances of going to heaven or being "good" ?

Two points. One: The vast majority of charity is socially motivated. I'll say nearly all. Two: Doesn't matter. Good works are good works, regardless of motivation.

I have seen many instances of people who really want to help... but I have seen many doing it for various other reasons... and then there is the rest of the passive population not involved. What good is it that a major Businessman donates money to charity if his profits come from pollution, low wages and bad economic practices ?

You mean the guy that provided both jobs abd service where there were none before? And he's also giving back his personal assets to the community while keeping his shareholders happy? What a gentleman!

Still... we can LE and LG in the same day easily... and one reason why alignment is only a broad guideline to behaviour of PC's ideally.

If the bulk of your actions are good, you're good (assuming the "non-good" actions aren't completely heinous). That's that. And I think the vast majority of people conduct themselves well.

I notice that all your examples are about theoretical folks. How about the people you actual know? They are really the only ones you can truly judge (notable exceptions apply). If most of the people you hang out with are really evil, and you think the whole world is that way, you have my sympathies and condolences.

PS