D&D General Discworld alignments

[EzekielRaiden]

It's hard to view Death as TN for me. Very early on, where he's much more amoral and occasionally does some things that are kinda questionable, definitely TN. But by the time of Reaper Man, he's definitely become Neutral Good--willing to bend the rules, willing to defy his theoretical masters, willing to ask for a boon from his lord, Azrael, Death of Universes.

I just cannot parse the following as coming from someone who is utterly True Neutral.

Aʟʟ ᴛʜɪɴɢꜱ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴀʀᴇ, ᴀʀᴇ ᴏᴜʀꜱ. Bᴜᴛ ᴡᴇ ᴍᴜꜱᴛ ᴄᴀʀᴇ. Fᴏʀ ɪꜰ ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀʀᴇ, ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴇxɪꜱᴛ. Iꜰ ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴇxɪꜱᴛ, ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴛʜᴇʀᴇ ɪꜱ ɴᴏᴛʜɪɴɢ ʙᴜᴛ ʙʟɪɴᴅ ᴏʙʟɪᴠɪᴏɴ. Aɴᴅ ᴇᴠᴇɴ ᴏʙʟɪᴠɪᴏɴ ᴍᴜꜱᴛ ᴇɴᴅ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴅᴀʏ. Lᴏʀᴅ, ᴡɪʟʟ ʏᴏᴜ ɢʀᴀɴᴛ ᴍᴇ ᴊᴜꜱᴛ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ᴛɪᴍᴇ? Fᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴩʀᴏᴩᴇʀ ʙᴀʟᴀɴᴄᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜɪɴɢꜱ. Tᴏ ʀᴇᴛᴜʀɴ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀꜱ ɢɪᴠᴇɴ. Fᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ꜱᴀᴋᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴩʀɪꜱᴏɴᴇʀꜱ ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰʟɪɢʜᴛ ᴏꜰ ʙɪʀᴅꜱ.​

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Death took a step backwards.​

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It was impossible to read expression in Azrael's features.​

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Death glanced sideways at the servants.​

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Lᴏʀᴅ, ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴄᴀɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʜᴀʀᴠᴇꜱᴛ ʜᴏᴩᴇ ꜰᴏʀ, ɪꜰ ɴᴏᴛ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴄᴀʀᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ Rᴇᴀᴩᴇʀ Mᴀɴ?​

This is someone appealing to the sensibility of Good in Azrael--in open defiance of the Lawful Evil Auditors. Heck, the whole thing with him learning to be Bill Door includes him getting slapped by Ms. Flitworth and realizing that individual lives do matter, even if the Reaper Man must remain dispassionate in the collecting of the souls thereof.

 

[Staffan]

It's hard to view Death as TN for me. Very early on, where he's much more amoral and occasionally does some things that are kinda questionable, definitely TN. But by the time of Reaper Man, he's definitely become Neutral Good--willing to bend the rules, willing to defy his theoretical masters, willing to ask for a boon from his lord, Azrael, Death of Universes.

I just cannot parse the following as coming from someone who is utterly True Neutral.

Aʟʟ ᴛʜɪɴɢꜱ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴀʀᴇ, ᴀʀᴇ ᴏᴜʀꜱ. Bᴜᴛ ᴡᴇ ᴍᴜꜱᴛ ᴄᴀʀᴇ. Fᴏʀ ɪꜰ ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀʀᴇ, ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴇxɪꜱᴛ. Iꜰ ᴡᴇ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ᴇxɪꜱᴛ, ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴛʜᴇʀᴇ ɪꜱ ɴᴏᴛʜɪɴɢ ʙᴜᴛ ʙʟɪɴᴅ ᴏʙʟɪᴠɪᴏɴ. Aɴᴅ ᴇᴠᴇɴ ᴏʙʟɪᴠɪᴏɴ ᴍᴜꜱᴛ ᴇɴᴅ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴅᴀʏ. Lᴏʀᴅ, ᴡɪʟʟ ʏᴏᴜ ɢʀᴀɴᴛ ᴍᴇ ᴊᴜꜱᴛ ᴀ ʟɪᴛᴛʟᴇ ᴛɪᴍᴇ? Fᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴩʀᴏᴩᴇʀ ʙᴀʟᴀɴᴄᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜɪɴɢꜱ. Tᴏ ʀᴇᴛᴜʀɴ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴀꜱ ɢɪᴠᴇɴ. Fᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ꜱᴀᴋᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴩʀɪꜱᴏɴᴇʀꜱ ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰʟɪɢʜᴛ ᴏꜰ ʙɪʀᴅꜱ.​

​

Death took a step backwards.​

​

It was impossible to read expression in Azrael's features.​

​

Death glanced sideways at the servants.​

​

Lᴏʀᴅ, ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴄᴀɴ ᴛʜᴇ ʜᴀʀᴠᴇꜱᴛ ʜᴏᴩᴇ ꜰᴏʀ, ɪꜰ ɴᴏᴛ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴄᴀʀᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ Rᴇᴀᴩᴇʀ Mᴀɴ?​

This is someone appealing to the sensibility of Good in Azrael--in open defiance of the Lawful Evil Auditors. Heck, the whole thing with him learning to be Bill Door includes him getting slapped by Ms. Flitworth and realizing that individual lives do matter, even if the Reaper Man must remain dispassionate in the collecting of the souls thereof.

I think the Death-focused stories, to some degree, are about Death's personality changing from LN to something closer to NG, but still bound by the nature of the role to act LN. This is particularly seen in two scenes in Hogfather. Toward the end, there is the Grand Explanation of the role of stories and myth:

“All right,” said Susan. “I’m not stupid. You’re saying humans need… fantasies to make life bearable.”

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

“Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—”

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING HOW TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

“So we can believe the big ones?”

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

“They’re not the same at all!”

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME…SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

“Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what’s the point—”

MY POINT EXACTLY.

This shows Death as a being who is fascinated by, and perhaps even envious of, humans' (and other sapients') ability to make choices and thus change the world. As Death, he is a cog in the machinery of reality. He may care for the harvest, but reap it he must. But earlier in the story, there's a bit with a more personal touch:

The sleigh slewed around at the end of Money Trap Lane.

COME ON, ALBERT.

"You know you’re not supposed to do this sort of thing, master. You know what happened last time."

THE HOGFATHER CAN DO IT, THOUGH.

"But… little match girls dying in the snow is part of what the Hogswatch spirit is all about, master," said Albert desperately. "I mean, people hear about it and say, ‘We may be poorer than a disabled banana and only have mud and old boots to eat, but at least we’re better off than the poor little match girl,’ master. It makes them feel happy and grateful for what they’ve got, see."

I KNOW WHAT THE SPIRIT OF HOGSWATCH IS, ALBERT.

"Sorry, master. But, look, it’s all right, anyway, because she wakes up and it’s all bright and shining and tinkling music and there’s angels, master."

Death stopped.

AH. THEY TURN UP AT THE LAST MINUTE WITH WARM CLOTHES AND A HOT DRINK?

"Er. No. Not exactly at the last minute, master. Not as such."

WELL?

"More sort of just after the last minute." Albert coughed nervously.

YOU MEAN AFTER SHE’S—

"Yes. That’s how the story goes, master, ‘s not my fault."

WHY NOT TURN UP BEFORE? AN ANGEL HAS QUITE A LARGE CARRYING CAPACITY.

"Couldn’t say, master. I suppose people think it’s more… satisfying the other way…" Albert hesitated and then growned. "You know, now that I come to tell someone…"

Death looked down at the shape under the falling snow. Then he set the lifetimer on the air and touched it with a finger. A spark flashed across.

"You ain’t really allowed to do that," said Albert, feeling wretched.

THE HOGFATHER CAN. THE HOGFATHER GIVES PRESENTS. THERE’S NO BETTER PRESENT THAN A FUTURE.

"Yeah, but—"

ALBERT.

"All right, master."

Death scooped up the girl and strode to the end of the alley.
The snowflakes fell like angel’s feathers. Death stepped out into the street and accosted two figures who were tramping through the drifts.

TAKE HER SOMEWHERE WARM AND GIVE HER A GOOD DINNER, he commanded, pushing the bundle into the arms of one of them. AND I MAY WELL BE CHECKING UP LATER.

Then he turned and disappeared in the swirling snow.

This is Death doing what he wants rather than what he must. And in Albert's reaction, we see how out of character this is for him, because normally Death is defined by his cosmic role. He can bend the rules a little, but when taking on the role of the Hogfather he can outright break them.

 

[Peter BOSCO'S]

Also, Roman emperor alignments: They're all Lawful Neutral except for all the ones who are Lawful Evil and the handful who are Chaotic Evil.

No, Rome was a brutal imperialistic slave-holding society. They're all Lawful Evil except for the handful who are Lawful Neutral and the ones who are Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil.

 

[NN]

Everyone in Discworld is Good, Neutral, or Evil because D&Ds concepts of Law and Chaos are nonsense outside of of D&Ds peculiar cosmology.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Everyone in Discworld is Good, Neutral, or Evil because D&Ds concepts of Law and Chaos are nonsense outside of of D&Ds peculiar cosmology.

Haven't read much Elric recently...?

 

[Bohandas]

Everyone in Discworld is Good, Neutral, or Evil because D&Ds concepts of Law and Chaos are nonsense outside of of D&Ds peculiar cosmology.

Warhammer

EDIT:

Also the Principia Discordia

 

[NN]

No, Rome was a brutal imperialistic slave-holding society. They're all Lawful Evil except for the handful who are Lawful Neutral and the ones who are Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil.

Ok …. as long as you are judging 90% of human civilisation as evil as well.

 

[Bohandas]

Ok …. as long as you are judging 90% of human civilisation as evil as well.

That sounds correct to me.

Edit:

Do you mean currently or historically or a combination of both? Historically it should probably be higher than 90%. Personally, I tend to view everything prior to around late the 1960's as one continuous dark age.

 

[Milieu]

Granny is Lawful realist without sentiment

Granny Weatherwax is canonically Good, but not Nice.

Granny Weatherwax was supposed to be a wicked witch, but was forced to be the good one to balance out her sister. And she resents it.

"The trouble is, you see, that if you do know Right from Wrong, you can't choose Wrong. You just can't do it and live. So.. if I was a bad witch I could make Mister Salzella's muscles turn against his bones and break them where he stood... if I was bad. I could do things inside his head, change the shape he thinks he is, and he'd be down on what had been his knees and begging to be turned into a frog... if I was bad. I could leave him with a mind like a scrambled egg, listening to colors and hearing smells...if I was bad. Oh yes." There was another sigh, deeper and more heartfelt.
"But I can't do none of that stuff. That wouldn't be Right."