D&D (2024) How to reign in full casters for 1D&D? Maybe remove 6th to 9th level spells as a Variant rule.

[Incenjucar]

I kinda miss the overly weak wizards of 2e. Always felt like there was a lot at stake when you rolled up on a monster or band of goblins.

If nothing else the party felt they needed to be protected, creating mutual reliance.

 

[HammerMan]

Nearly every caster PC quickly settled into a rather static spell list where they might swap a couple spells. That was even quicker because the bread and butter spells were pretty stable with just the same couple oddball just in case niche spells getting rotated to some other oddball niche spells.

My 2e and even 3e experience was most maybe 40-60% of casters had 1 list of spells and then would swap out 1 or 2 spells on odd days
Some larg minority like maybe 20% tops would have 2-3 lists and label them “dungeon day” “town day” “travel day” or something like that and still swap out the occasional spell.
Once in 2e and once right before we stopped playing 3.5 I saw someone do. Anything more complex than that.

 

[renbot]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I've read several complaints that utility magic makes other PCs irrelevant. I was developing a spellbook for a bladesinger last night and I decided to add a bunch of utility spells and let him choose his own combat spells.

Apparently I like the kinds of complicated campaigns where utility magic, planning, and skills are all necessary to survive and achieve campaign goals. Disguise Self or Charm making noncasters irrelevant? Hell no! They are necessary to penetrate deep into the foes' lair where quick wits, combat ability, skill checks must be brought together to get the job done!

I guess that's while I liked Honor Among Thieves more than I expected to....

 

[Emberashh]

This is a bit of a tangent, but I've read several complaints that utility magic makes other PCs irrelevant. I was developing a spellbook for a bladesinger last night and I decided to add a bunch of utility spells and let him choose his own combat spells.

Apparently I like the kinds of complicated campaigns where utility magic, planning, and skills are all necessary to survive and achieve campaign goals. Disguise Self or Charm making noncasters irrelevant? Hell no! They are necessary to penetrate deep into the foes' lair where quick wits, combat ability, skill checks must be brought together to get the job done!

I guess that's while I liked Honor Among Thieves more than I expected to....

Utility magic is fine to have. Its the "this always works with no drawbacks or meaningful costs" that isn't fine.

 

[CleverNickName]

Utility magic is fine to have. Its the "this always works with no drawbacks or meaningful costs" that isn't fine.

On the other side of the coin, there are people who feel the fighter should still inflict damage even when their attack roll misses.

 

[Emberashh]

On the other side of the coin, there are people who feel the fighter should still inflict damage even when their attack roll misses.

Sure. Ive found that that idea works better in a context where actively defending yourself is an actual part of the combat loop.

If your target doesn't defend itself then even a miss still does half damage, because its not so much that you hit air but that your hit was ineffective, and if they do defend themselves, then that makes the miss less an issue of you just sucking from bad luck and more them just being competitive with you.

And mind, you can achieve the same sort of feel just be describing hits and misses like that, but I obviously prefer more mechanical hard coding.

 

[shadowoflameth]

We can all agree that after 10th level, game breaks down in some places, and main reason is specific spells from 6th to 9th level.

So, instead of 6th and 9th level spells(and spell slots), why not just give extra spell slots of 1st to 5th level for "full-casters" at levels 11-20?

by using "budget" from spell slot variant and adding 50% extra spell points for levels 11-20, as more spell slots of levels 1-5 just do not cut the same as spell slots of levels 6-9, here the variant table of spell slots/points.

View attachment 285079

This way casters get more Actions per day to use on spells, as there is higher total of spell slots, so defaulting to cantrips is delayed or not encouraged, and game breakers are removed from the game.

we still get to keep the classics from 5th level spell levels like, Raise dead, Telekinesis, Teleportation circle, Greater restoration, Summon Celestial/Dragon/Elemental, Cloudkill and others.

Here is also an option to include bad 6th level spells and very bad 7th level spells as 5th level spells, looking at you Mordekainens sword...

At high levels, DMing, I count on players to be able to find solutions to almost any problem especially from 17th on when 9th level spells come online and where classes start to get their high level features. IMHO a lot of what you're trying to take away from casters is simply part of the game in a high magic fantasy world. Mordenkainen's Sword is strong but by no means 'broken.' If you're 15th level and can use a 7th level wizard spell, you're using concentration and a probably trivial gold cost to do 3d10 force over and over. OK, but compare that to the Eldritch Blast Cantrip as the same 15th level Wizard who picked it up. You're doing 3d10 over and over at range, at will, splitting it into multiple attacks. Not to mention what you can do at the same level with Simulacrum. At 15th level, the fighter can easily do 3d10 with a longsword, with no cost over and over, add strength, occasionally do 6d10 and probably add other effects from his maneuvers if he's the Battle Master, plus whatever his magic weapon does, or if he's the Eldrtich Knight, he might do 3d10 and still cast a spell. The fun depends on what character you want to play. IMHO if you've played a martial character to 15th level and you're feeling under powered, you're either missing opportunities, or being treated unfairly by the DM.

 

[HammerMan]

Simulacrum Is a problem. I can’t understand why it still is a spell.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Simulacrum Is a problem. I can’t understand why it still is a spell.

probably because it's also just as much a fantastic tool for pulling DM side plot shenanigans on the players, such as revealing that the baddie they just killed was just a doombot simulacrum and the like, it sounds like one of the spells that only DMs got access to in previous editions but now the playing field is even and both sides have equal access to all magics but they don't want to take the DM tool away so it stays for the players too.

 

[HammerMan]

probably because it's also just as much a fantastic tool for pulling DM side plot shenanigans on the players, such as revealing that the baddie they just killed was just a doombot simulacrum and the like, it sounds like one of the spells that only DMs got access to in previous editions but now the playing field is even and both sides have equal access to all magics but they don't want to take the DM tool away so it stays for the players too.

To quote Ben Grim “I’m starting to thing there never was a real Dr Doom”