How to simply balance ranged weapons.

[Horwath]

There is a lot of discussion on (over)power of ranged weapons, and as I agree with most of 5E decision for ranged weapons(dex for both attack and damage), some more penalties should be added for usage of Ranged Weapons.

1. Making attack with a ranged weapon provokes Attack of Opportunity.
2. When you make an attack with ranged weapon, melee attacks vs. you have advantage until the start of your next turn. This counts for triggering the AoO from point 1.

Extra point: archery style should be changed from +2 attack to prof bonus to damage with ranged weapons.

 

[S'mon]

I think #1 is fair, I don't like #2 as it requires tracking & seems very harsh.

 

[Horwath]

I think #1 is fair, I don't like #2 as it requires tracking & seems very harsh.

It's supposed to be harsh,
if you can attack from 150/600ft without any retaliation from melee, then if you get caught in melee, using ranged weapons should be a big pain.

 

[S'mon]

It's supposed to be harsh,
if you can attack from 150/600ft without any retaliation from melee, then if you get caught in melee, using ranged weapons should be a big pain.

Hm. In reality IME 5e archers are typically attacking from more like 30' not 150'+. The game is played mostly in dungeons, after all.

 

[Horwath]

Hm. In reality IME 5e archers are typically attacking from more like 30' not 150'+. The game is played mostly in dungeons, after all.

that is true, maybe you will have rely more on your melee frontliners to hold the line.
Also in playtest Sentinel feat now comes with +1 ASI so it's more attractive to front liners, so they can keep theirs squishy ranged friend safe.

 

[Gorck]

I'm not saying ranged attacks are overpowered and need to be nerfed. But if such an adjustment must be made, the simplest solution would be to revert back to 3e/3.5e where your DEX (or STR for thrown) modifier was not added to the damage.

For the record, I don't like the OP's option 1 and really don't like option 2. Unless the person is making a ranged attack while an enemy is currently in melee range, then I see no reason why doing so would provoke an OA or grant advantage to future attackers.

 

[Andvari]

I'm not saying ranged attacks are overpowered and need to be nerfed. But if such an adjustment must be made, the simplest solution would be to revert back to 3e/3.5e where your DEX (or STR for thrown) modifier was not added to the damage.

For the record, I don't like the OP's option 1 and really don't like option 2. Unless the person is making a ranged attack while an enemy is currently in melee range, then I see no reason why doing so would provoke an OA or grant advantage to future attackers.

STR bonus added to thrown weapon damage in 3E/3.5E, but not to general missile weapons. But composite longbows specifically let you add STR to damage.

 

[payn]

I think I prefer the dropping Dex to damage as a better solution. There should indeed be a drawback to the advantages of ranged combat, and relying on AoO in 5E seems like a bad way to balance.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

#1 again no. Useless, because you would leave melee anyway.

#2 yes. Because that was what I was suggesting in the other thread.

#3 don't care. Probably ignoring partial cover penalty would be the best choice. For firing in melee or someone behind a tree it will be equal to a +2 bonus, whichseems fair enough.
+2 to damage in some way is a buff.

My general ranged nerf is having a point blank range, where after 30ft range you don't get any dextrerity bonus to damage. This makes ranged attacks way more fair, as it limits focus fire and on the way to melee, damage is significantly reduced.

 

[Amrûnril]

There is a lot of discussion on (over)power of ranged weapons, and as I agree with most of 5E decision for ranged weapons(dex for both attack and damage), some more penalties should be added for usage of Ranged Weapons.

1. Making attack with a ranged weapon provokes Attack of Opportunity.
2. When you make an attack with ranged weapon, melee attacks vs. you have advantage until the start of your next turn. This counts for triggering the AoO from point 1.

Extra point: archery style should be changed from +2 attack to prof bonus to damage with ranged weapons.

I think the overarching issue with ranged attacks is that, in outdoor encounters with good visibility, a ranged combatant gets many rounds of high quality attacks before a melee combatant can close to effective range. Penalizing ranged weapons in melee will do relatively little to solve this issue unless the effectiveness of medium to long range attacks against alert opponents is also decreased.

I also wonder about round length as part of a solution. A round in AD&D, if I recall correctly, represented a minute of combat. I don't think I'd go quite that far, but if a round of combat represented 20 or 30 seconds instead of 6, with a corresponding increase to the effectiveness of the dash action over open terrain, melee combatants would take a more reasonable number of attacks while approaching combat.

 

[S'mon]

I also wonder about round length as part of a solution. A round in AD&D, if I recall directly represented a minute of combat. I don't think I'd go quite that far, but if a round of combat represented 20 or 30 seconds instead of 6, with a corresponding increase to the effectiveness of the dash action over open terrain, melee combatants would take a more reasonable number of attacks while approaching combat.

Yes, I think characters are too slow relative to attack rate. Doubling everyone's movement (perhaps through some special Actions like 'sprint' and 'charge' that you can't use while shooting) would help fix that.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It's supposed to be harsh,
if you can attack from 150/600ft without any retaliation from melee, then if you get caught in melee, using ranged weapons should be a big pain.

I feel like your first problem (attacking from 600ft) obviates your punishment (advantage on melee attacks.

Basically, you're punishing ranged fighters for not getting the advantage you're punishing them for having.

 

[aco175]

Tracking arrows will stop people from shooting them 600ft.

I hate that, so I would be more in favor of lowering the damage as a simply means.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Tracking arrows will stop people from shooting them 600ft.

Or playing at that table.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'm not saying ranged attacks are overpowered and need to be nerfed. But if such an adjustment must be made, the simplest solution would be to revert back to 3e/3.5e where your DEX (or STR for thrown) modifier was not added to the damage.

For the record, I don't like the OP's option 1 and really don't like option 2. Unless the person is making a ranged attack while an enemy is currently in melee range, then I see no reason why doing so would provoke an OA or grant advantage to future attackers.

Yep. In my own game, strength is only added to melee and thrown weapon damage. Bows and whatnot don’t get dex applied to damage.

 

[Horwath]

I'm not saying ranged attacks are overpowered and need to be nerfed. But if such an adjustment must be made, the simplest solution would be to revert back to 3e/3.5e where your DEX (or STR for thrown) modifier was not added to the damage.

Yes, dealing 1 damage with your bow was always fun and exciting at the table...

For the record, I don't like the OP's option 1 and really don't like option 2. Unless the person is making a ranged attack while an enemy is currently in melee range, then I see no reason why doing so would provoke an OA or grant advantage to future attackers.

You provoke AoO only from creatures that are threatening you.
As for granting advantage, it simulates that you focus on aiming so much that you leave yourself vulnerable to melee attacks if those happen in that round. Also bow/crossbow is poor parry implement and in abstractions of HP/AC, parry could be a part of total AC.

 

[S'mon]

Yes, dealing 1 damage with your bow was always fun and exciting at the table...

You provoke AoO only from creatures that are threatening you.
As for granting advantage, it simulates that you focus on aiming so much that you leave yourself vulnerable to melee attacks if those happen in that round. Also bow/crossbow is poor parry implement and in abstractions of HP/AC, parry could be a part of total AC.

The problem is not the idea of shooting leaving yourself open, more that it should carry over to attacks several seconds later. A crossbow is a better parry implement than unarmed yet uarmed PCs don't grant advantage!

 

[Clint_L]

I don’t think ranged weapons are OP. Where are all these discussions at? Are rangers and rogues suddenly dominating D&D or something? I would like more explanation of the core premise.

 

[Horwath]

The problem is not the idea of shooting leaving yourself open, more that it should carry over to attacks several seconds later. A crossbow is a better parry implement than unarmed yet uarmed PCs don't grant advantage!

Action happens all at once, but since we cannot have a game where everyone acts and shouts over each other, we need to have turns and rounds. Advantage is describing that when you aim, in reality someone is bashing you over the head with a hammer.

As for unarmed, I agree, without being a monk or having a style or a tavern brawler feat, attacking someone that has a sword with a punch should be very dangerous.

 

[S'mon]

Action happens all at once

Reactions are for 'at once', otherwise the events of a round are supposed to be smeared out over ca 6 seconds. I just don't think this works well with the combat system as written.