How tough is City of the Spider Queen?

Originally posted by Numion:
How come do you find them lazy? Considering the complexity of high-CR stat blocks in 3e and the high production values of the two large modules WotC has put out, I wouldn't call them lazy. For lazy DMs perhaps (guilty as charged, I like running stuff more than making it ), but not lazy in the making.

I'm not saying that WotC is lazy in their production values- they clearly are not. The produce some of the most beautiful RPG books out there. What I do find lazy is the meatgrinder dungeon hack, with only a ghost of a plot. Most of the adventure path modules and CotSQ fall victim to this- there is just enough plot to justify going into some dungeon/caverns/castle and killing everything in sight, avoiding traps, and looting. Whats that? Drow are raiding Daggerdale and someone has to stop them? I know- lets go hack them and everything on the way to their leader to pieces! Thats not a story, its Diablo- and a computer program can randomly create this. If the DM wants more plot in this kind of adventure, he has to invent it on his own. So it begs the question of why isn't WotC (and some other companies) trying to make adventures that actually have a stroyline and background that will draw the PCs in, rather than just another dungeon hack. Like I said earlier, some people love the meatgrinder dungeon hack, but I find them lazy.
 

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Gothmog said:
Originally posted by Numion:

Most of the adventure path modules and CotSQ fall victim to this- there is just enough plot to justify going into some dungeon/caverns/castle and killing everything in sight, avoiding traps, and looting. Whats that? Drow are raiding Daggerdale and someone has to stop them? I know- lets go hack them and everything on the way to their leader to pieces! Thats not a story, its Diablo- and a computer program can randomly create this. If the DM wants more plot in this kind of adventure, he has to invent it on his own.

I have only rarely found this to be the case in the adventure path and certainly don't find this to be the case with the City of the Spider Queen.

Mind you, I certainly haven't played through the whole of the adventure paths, but Speaker in Dreams was very entertaining and not at all a hackfest, at least as my group played it, and the Standing Stone wasn't too hacky at all, though the maze bit made me crazy.

City of the Spider Queen, however, strikes me as entirely dependent on a fairly complicated plot and historical context. I could not imagine trying to run the adventure without the political, religious, and personal elements. There are some very complicated NPCs in there and if your DM is running them without making you very aware of their motivations then he is doing you a great disservice.
 

Dr. Strangemonkey said:


I have only rarely found this to be the case in the adventure path and certainly don't find this to be the case with the City of the Spider Queen.

Mind you, I certainly haven't played through the whole of the adventure paths, but Speaker in Dreams was very entertaining and not at all a hackfest, at least as my group played it, and the Standing Stone wasn't too hacky at all, though the maze bit made me crazy.

City of the Spider Queen, however, strikes me as entirely dependent on a fairly complicated plot and historical context. I could not imagine trying to run the adventure without the political, religious, and personal elements. There are some very complicated NPCs in there and if your DM is running them without making you very aware of their motivations then he is doing you a great disservice.

That's true, there are interesting figures in there - but none of them are fleshed out, and most aren't connected in any way - which means that the DM has to do all the work... Since the reason I'd buy a module is because I didn't feel like doing all the hard work myself (or didn't have time), that kind of misses the point - making up maps and combat encounters is, as far as I'm concerned, the easy part.
 
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Daredevill said:
Ironchef, you obviously have issues with this dungeon. I don't think I've ever heard someone dump on something, they haven't even played yet, as bad as you have here.

Just forget it. Tell your DM to put the adventure aside and set to work on a D20 version of "The Mists of Avalon" or something along those lines.

Boy, do I feel sorry for your DM. :rolleyes:

You didn't read all my posts, did you? The DM isn't new and knows our style of play, yet still flubs up by pulling epic, save the world adventures on us after we repeatedly tell him we have no interest in them (or saving the world).

I'm dumping on it because I hate the UnderDark from personal experience in TSR's 2e NIGHT BELOW mega-campaign. Worst experience of my gaming life. I dredged through that awful adventure for a year of game time (several months of real time). The only fun I had was "pacifying" the outlying surface villages in the name of Zhentil Keep (which actually was done--albeit accidentally--without much violence and in a fairly even-handed, diplomatic manner that preserved the rule of law and rights of most "citizens", lol, making my otherwise selfish, paranoid, hateful LE Banite wizard (transmuter) suddenly a "hero" in the eyes of the region's people, sparking a major personality shift toward a friendly, (relatively) sincere "man of the people" LN (e) who would become a dominating force in Zhentil Keep politics, trying to better the lives of its citizens (while glorifying himself and his LN/LE cronies after succeeding at Night Below and saving the Foreign Quarter from the Cyricist Horde of frost giants, white dragons and gnolls in the 2e Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set).

Anyway, everything before and after was great fun, but the actual "meat(grinder)" of the Night Below adventure sucked. Not my cup of tea at all. Endless "kill everything in sight", then "pretend to negotiate a deal with the enemy" then more kill everything in sight. Horrible, and I lost a lot of great NPCs I really liked on that seemingly endless mission, NPCs I'd had with me for years of game time that meant a lot.

Hackfests are only fun for me when used sparingly, and where we can easily leave if we grow bored or the tide turns against us, and where we aren't required to return to fulfil some "great goal" we don't care anything about. I hate epic, save the world (or parts of the world) adventures as a general rule of thumb, because they always involve endless meatgrinders to get to the end. Gearing up for them and finishing them is great, but the bulk of it is just a painful exercise in frustration.

I'm far happier doing small-scale schemes that don't have world-shaking consequences and that I can cut loose from if they blow up in my face or become too bothersome. As a true villain, I far prefer picking on helpless peasants and those who pose no real threat to me. :D
 
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The DM let us have five days game time to cut loose and take care of personal business/pleasure (my wizard took out several key leadership figures at the Thayan Enclave in Hillsfar who had their eye on opening one in Zhentil Keep, which would have destroyed her Thayan boytoy's business, and therefore, was quite clearly unacceptable). Disguised as a slavegirl at a party (and in the background where the Red Wizards couldn't really see her), she cast a bunch of summon monster spells and "owned" the room, LOL, all without ever being spotted or attacked. :)

Summon Monster VI: Dao from MoP (wall of stone at will, passwall at will), Osyluth (dimensional anchor so targets can't teleport away), Nishru (from MoF, eats "magic" and uses it to heal itself beyond its normal HP total, feebleminds arcane casters caught in its cloud body); Summon Monster V: Achaierai (insanity cloud 3/day); Summon Monster IV: Skiver (from CC2, scorpion-centaur daemon) Summon Monster III: 1d3 Obake (from Creatures of Rokugan, can cast summon swarm 6/day).

The primary target was dimensional locked by the Osyluth preventing him from escaping by teleport/dimension door/etc., prevented from casting any magic spells or using any magic items by the Nishruu, sealed off by walls of stone from the Dao (thus keeping most of his troops out of the battle), and his allies kept busy/insane by the Achaierai, torn apart by the Skivers, and harassed by the Obake's swarms. He was quickly feebleminded and tried to crawl away under the table for cover, lol, where the osyluth and Obake swarms stung him to death. His buddy red wizard went insane and was torn to pieces by the Achaierai, while the Dao kept casting wall of stone to seal the area against any rescue attempts. Then I teleported home, my first magical assassination attempt a stunning success proving the superiority of the conjuration school over all other wizard schools. :p

Anyway, then we cast modify memory on the Thayan boyfriend so he wouldn't remember hiring me to assassinate the Red Wizards (in case they showed up and interrogated him, hehe), it was for everyone's protection, and the additional memories we modified were relatively harmless, ensuring he really, really l loved me, LOL. Couldn't trust the slippery little devil even in that respect. :)

So then the **** hits the fan, as my vampirized father kidnaps my boyfriend (shortly after we modified his memory---so hopefully, no one will ever know that I was the one who did the hit on the Red Wizards), trying to lure me home to a trap and vampirize me, but I got the hell out of there after he cast finger of death on the half-dragon PC and he dropped dead after rolling a "3" on his Fort save. I chalk that up to his faith in Bane wavering (he actually considered my father's offer to join him in undeath). Once again, Summon Monster VI and my old friend, the Dao, saved my bacon, walling my father's forces off while I teleported out with the dead half-dragon. My DM says the Dao is "broken." :D He might be right, as I could just summon a bunch to cast wall of stone and quickly build myself a walled fortress dirt cheap. :D

Anyway, my emotional raid on my father's house to rescue my lover was also effective in turning the Zhentarim against me (I'd had orders to leave my father alone after he legally disowned/disinherited me), and there were "reputable" Zhentarim witnesses in the house besides my father (under his control). Apparently, now the Zhentarim itself is being subverted and turned into a tool of my enemies to be used against me. The Zhentarim secret police (Gestapo) are after me, I've lost just about everything I've worked so hard to build up, including my entire revenue stream, the "love of my life" (now a vampire as I couldn't save him), and my position of authority in the Zhentarim. I've been branded a "rogue agent" and am on the run from friends and enemies alike... Which very nicely serves to motivate me to go on the City of the Spider Queen adventure, as there's nothing left for me except REVENGE! This time, it's personal. :D

Rather heavy-handed of the DM, but far better than just trying to jam us through CoTSQ without motivating us properly, LOL. Apparently, this is Bane's way of saying:

"Do my bidding, or your torment will know no bounds! You will be hunted down like dogs by friends and enemies alike. There is nothing in this world for you except that which the Black Hand allows you to have.

Your disobedient delay to indulge in such trifling mortal matters has cost you dearly, and if you fail me in this quest, your mortal suffering shall be nothing compared to that which awaits you in my Realm Beyond."


So, off we go to Maerimydra to get the Rod... again, this time with no nagging distractions left behind to whisper in our ears promises of sweet relaxation and personal triumph. :(

I've thought it would be a good idea to at least attempt to contact Fzoul, Scyllua, The Council of High Imperceptors (governing body of Bane's church we made up to deal with the crap Fzoul doesn't have time for, with his appointee, the Imperator, serving as its head), Manshoon, or anybody high enough up to let them know about this plot within the ranks to unseat them and subvert everything they've built up, just to try and save a few lives and avert some damage to the Keep and the Zhentarim, but doubtless they wouldn't believe me, or if they did (and maybe already knew about it), would just tell me to go on the mission anyway, and that matters would be put right when I returned triumphant. I could use a sending spell or something, as I can't risk going back to the Keep...

We haven't made it much past the Bebiliths/Roper area, though this time I used my new charm outsider spell (from Joe's Book of Enchantment---an excellent pdf resource for enchanters--buy it at RPGNow) to charm the demon doppel-ghoul (whatever its name is), promising it easy meals if it tags along and helps show us the way. We've got three House Jaelre drow with us to help, and a handful of cannon fodder" for the frontline, plus an extra wizard (8th level evoker). We just took out a drow checkpoint, capturing one of four and killing the rest. We will interrogate her for info on the cult of Kiaransalee, the Rod, and what horrors await us en route to Maerimydra. We will leave behind shattered, tortured corpses in our wake with warnings that the "Doom of Kiarnsalee is nigh" or some such, possible spelled out in drow entrails. :D
 
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Sounds really nice.

Be sure to write out the clues you leave behind in such a way as to cause confusion.

My party set up so that all of our combats looked like conflicts within the drow city and an incredibly deadly Drow domestic terrorist cell.

It was lovely.
 


6 PCs and a whooole lotta magic items

My group has been playing this run for months now (since October?) and we're just about at the end. The group started at 9th or 10th and has advanced up through 13th with some characters very near 14th. We started with wealth and magic in excess of that recommended by the DMG guideline. We are getting our butts handed to us in the final battles. Why's that?

[ SPOILERS BELOW THIS POINT ]

We've done the stealth/diplomacy route and have avoided many fights by either talking or sneaking our way past. What this has done: we have deprived ourselves of experience points and loot. Not really an issue if you're doing it for story reasons (Hurry! We cannot fight these pests, we must SAVE THE WORLD!), right? Well...

The way it's being played, which BTW is completely appropriate IMO and I do not fault the GM in the slightest (in fact, I think it's cool), is that there is absolutely NO chance for diplomacy OR stealth in the end game. You are facing TRUE EVIL that is only one step removed from GODLEVEL POWER and It wants to KILL EVERYTHING. Multiple opponents who, alone, are CR18 (or greater!), are within shouting distance of, like, half a dozen buddies that are similiarly powerful, and who want you dead, Dead, DEAD. If you lack the HD and the magic to take them down, well, welcome to the ranks of the undead; that was the baddies' goal all along.

It has been a fun ride, but at this point my party's only hope of survival (not success, just living to see another day) is convincing a Baalor lackey (yes, a lackey; he and a couple of others report to someone EVEN MORE powerful named "Hellspawn") that our knowledge and cooperation will be more satisifying, or at least useful, to him than our painful deaths.

party consists of:

NG wood elf barbarian (13) + annoyingly LG badass moon blade
NG moon elf ranger (13)
CN moon elf sorcerer/spellfire channeler (10/3)
CG shield dwarf cleric of brightaxe (13)
NG human psychic warrior (13)
NE halfling rogue (13)
 
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I hate it when DMs don't give xp for intentionally bypassing an enemy as an obstacle. That certainly seems like a way of meeting the challenge presented by an opponent and takes a lot of effort and cunning to pull off.

People deserve XP for that sort of thing.

My group is very lucky in that all of our DMs abide by this principal.
 

We've gotten experience points for bypassing challenges

Just not as much as if we had actually defeated them.

Even if we had gotten full experience points awards we'd still be done the loot, eh. Because, after all, money does a fighter good.
 

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