D&D 5E How We Beat the HD, HotDQ, Spoilers

[Weezknight]

Even during the attack instead of waiting it out till the enemy leaves?
The problem is that the start of the adventure requires the PCs to be heroic stupid and makes that possible by pulling punches.
Not everyone likes that style of adventure.

Absolutely, there's no one-size-fits-all adventure. But I think the whole heroic stupid thing depends on how much information is given out by the DM as the characters approach Greenest.

Is the dragon attacking in full force when they arrive? Is he just sitting on a parapet somewhere? Does he look interested in the attack at all?

How many raiders do the PC's actually see? How much fire and smoke is actually billowing from the town?

All of this comes into play. At the very least I would expect the PC's to try and get in close enough to further assess the situation. From there it should be very easy for them to figure out a way to pick their way through the town without fighting every moving thing available to them.

In the case of my players, what they wrote into their back story was enough for them to head in and try to safely/stealthily find the person they were looking for. Because who knew if that person would still be around if they waited it out.

 

[Mirtek]

They don't even know that they can't fight a dragon, or drive it off.

I know I can't beat up Myke Tyson, despite knowing neither his or mine level.

 

[Kaychsea]

Been thinking about this

Those who know me would say that it makes a change, but there you go.

I'm preparing Hoard to run it for a small group and was wondering how to hook the players. The whole setup is there to appeal to heroes, which you would hope is what the party will aspire to. Failing that I intend at least one of them to have family in Greenest as a stick to poke them with.

The whole way of dealing with the duel with Cyanwrath seemed off to me. Partly the way the LG wizard tried to game the half-dragon, partly the DMs fault.

As written Cyanwrath is an egotistical creature with a rigid code of honour, rather than bluster about rules the woman would have been dead with a half dozen arrows in her from the moment the player broke crosed the line. Surprise round? Really?

This encounter is not there to kill anyone. It's to draw them out as heroes. It's also to set up the showdown with him a couple of episodes in, to establish a rapport with a villian that (probably) left one of them in a crumpled heap in front of the keep. As an atmosphere builder it's really quite a nice moment.

The whole book (only just got up to the start of p 8) is nicely thought out. There are factions pitched against each other, against and within the Cult, there are always ways to get what they want without wholesale slaughter, although opportunities abound. Looking forward to seeing how my friends cope to be honest.

 

[KarinsDad]

Now to me, that sounds like metagaming. Characters don't know that they are first level. They don't even know that they can't fight a dragon, or drive it off.

Seriously? PCs do not know that there are much better fighters who can fight small armies of men, wizards who can blow up buildings, clerics who can raise people from the dead? There are not stories of dragons that wipe out entire towns or even cities, regardless of armies of people fighting them?

Sorry, your premise here sounds untenable.

This is not just a random unknown monster. This is a DRAGON!!! I have never been in a D&D game ever where PCs did not automatically have knowledge that Dragons are one of the biggest, baddest monsters out there. It's never been metagaming knowledge to know that.

The 0-level militia men defending the village aren't taking into account their ability within the game to fight a dragon or an invading force.

True. But 0-level militia men are stuck with the situation that they are in. It's one thing to be stuck in a town that a dragon is attacking. It's another to walk into the situation.

In the former, there is no decision. In the latter, the decision should be based on PC motivations, not the fact that it's a game, so go for it.

Sure, the game doesn't explicitly address what to do if the characters abandon Greenest altogether and go somewhere else, but by the same token it doesn't require that they go to Greenest to continue the story, so I'm hard pressed to see that as a failing.

Going to a town with a rampaging dragon flying over it sounds a bit insane.

It's funny. In the Lost Mines of Phandelver, a boatload of people here on the boards argued that 3rd level PCs should not be stupid enough to attack a dragon, even if the module points the PCs in that direction. And if players had their PCs attack the dragon, they got what they deserved.

In this module, people here on the boards are arguing 1st level PCs should be stupid enough to go into the same town as a dragon and not only that, it's perfectly reasonable to have 2nd level PCs attack a dragon.

Which is it? Both sound dumb to me. They are DRAGONS. Duh.

Whatever a game designer writes into a module, even if it is contrary to the previous module, is totally good module design because it's written down?

To me, both of these modules are poorly designed with regards to their dragons. The first one because it's setting up the PCs for a TPK and the second one because the players are forced to play heroic stupid, just to even be part of the first chapter.

 

[KarinsDad]

This encounter is not there to kill anyone. It's to draw them out as heroes.

The players do not necessarily know this until after the fight though and maybe not even then.

DM: "Come on, I'm going to have this guy beat the snot out of your PC, just so that he can be a hero."

Player: "Err, what???"


The problem with the "the rationale for this scene is to introduce the PCs to this xyz concept" is that this is not a good justification for presenting scenarios that players roleplaying their PCs might try to completely avoid.

It's perfectly reasonable for heroic PCs to avoid coming to the town at all. Not everyone in our group wanted to cause it seemed like suicide.

It's perfectly reasonable for heroic PCs to not want to fight the Dragon. Most of the players at my table did not do so, it was mostly the crazy fighter (player purposely playing him that way).

It's perfectly reasonable for heroic PCs to not want to fight the duel.

But all of these are pretty much shoved down the players throats. The DM knows that the dragon is not planning on wiping out the PCs, but the players do not know that. The DM knows that the half-dragon is not planning on killing the PC, but the players do not know that.


Using the motivation of the NPC as a reason why the encounter is not a bad design does not change the encounter. It just changes the justification for the encounter. The encounter is still subpar.

 

[sithramir]

I know I can't beat up Myke Tyson, despite knowing neither his or mine level.

If I saw Myke Tyson beating a defenseless child I would try to stop him. I wouldn't win and I wouldn't even consider it heroic. Heroic good characters probably realize they are better prepared to help a threat than townsfolk. Isn't that enough of a motivation?

 

[KarinsDad]

If I saw Myke Tyson beating a defenseless child I would try to stop him. I wouldn't win and I wouldn't even consider it heroic. Heroic good characters probably realize they are better prepared to help a threat than townsfolk. Isn't that enough of a motivation?

Mike Tyson versus a normal person is not even on the same threat level as a dragon versus a small group of 1st level PCs.

A dragon is laughably more powerful than the first level PCs.

A dragon is more like a fighter jet raining down bullets and missiles.

Very few people, even altruistically motivated ones, would rush into an area that a fighter jet was pummeling with firepower. Some people like roleplaying their PCs as if they were intelligent and not just boxcars on the game designer's train tracks.

 

[sithramir]

Mike Tyson versus a normal person is not even on the same threat level as a dragon versus a small group of 1st level PCs.

A dragon is laughably more powerful than the first level PCs.

A dragon is more like a fighter jet raining down bullets and missiles.

Very few people, even altruistically motivated ones, would rush into an area that a fighter jet was pummeling with firepower. Some people like roleplaying their PCs as if they were intelligent and not just boxcars on the game designer's train tracks.

Many people in real life do extremely dangerous things much closer to your analogy on a regular basis. Firefighters for instance? They aren't stupid. They are brave and heroic. Or maybe it's that brave and heroic trumps thinking when a life or many lives are on the line?

Noone's saying every character would run to fight a dragon. But keep in mind the PC's aren't level 0. They are already exemplary beyond the average of their race with powers (even at first level) that can be astounding. And are already somehow motivatated beyond being a smith or a farmer in a town.

If innocent people are threatened, many of these extraordinary people would risk their lives to save them. Yours might not and that's fine. I probably wouldn't do that either but the adventure isn't forcing a true fight in either of these situations. There are options there. The intent of them is perhaps a lesson in fear and future setting. Are there better ways? Yes. They aren't in this adventure. I encourage you to make an adventure the way you think it should be because you seem creative in how you played and it probably would be great inspiration for others to use, etc.

I think the half-orc encounter is excellent. It screams "let the paladin character shine!". It sucks if there's no character that fits the paladin concept though.

A pre-written adventure is going to have to railroad you some or you'd have to place it on the table next to you and do another adventure anyway.

 

[Tony Vargas]

A dragon is more like a fighter jet raining down bullets and missiles.

Very few people, even altruistically motivated ones, would rush into an area that a fighter jet was pummeling with firepower.

Well, if they're playing HotDQ at Encounters and anyone's died, they've already found out they get resurrected for free, so what the hey?

(For the record, my Encounters table declined the Lanithon mission, BTW. I've run it a few other times, the one party that succeeded - actually dealt 24 damage before the Dragon killed 10 defenders - did it thanks to Magic Missiles.)

Some people like roleplaying their PCs as if they were intelligent and not just boxcars on the game designer's train tracks.

And some like RPing Heroic Fantasy characters as if they were heroic on some level...

 

[KarinsDad]

Many people in real life do extremely dangerous things much closer to your analogy on a regular basis. Firefighters for instance? They aren't stupid. They are brave and heroic. Or maybe it's that brave and heroic trumps thinking when a life or many lives are on the line?

Regular basis?

On average, 3.25 firefighters lose their lives in the US per 100,000 fire incidents (and more get injured). I'm not putting down the heroism and dedication of firefighters, but your comparison is not even anywhere near the same ballpark in relative risk assessment (other than firefighter casualties happen for real and PC casualties do not).

If the dragon was really trying to kill PCs in this adventure, my guess would be that most PC parties would be partial or total TPKs (assuming that DMs would run the adventure that way). 4+ PCs lose their lives per 1 incidents, not per 100,000 incidents.

So the question comes down to "Why would PCs think that their odds of survival were not actually negligible?".


In real life, yes, a lot of people try to be heroic. But there are situations (like a forty foot tidal wave) where the odds are so stacked against survival that even the most heroic people can see that there really is no chance.

That's what this town should be like to well roleplayed PCs.

Noone's saying every character would run to fight a dragon. But keep in mind the PC's aren't level 0. They are already exemplary beyond the average of their race with powers (even at first level) that can be astounding. And are already somehow motivatated beyond being a smith or a farmer in a town.

Not that exemplary that they think that they can survive a dragon. Not at first level.

It sucks if there's no character that fits the paladin concept though.

Yup.

A pre-written adventure is going to have to railroad you some or you'd have to place it on the table next to you and do another adventure anyway.

No doubt. But low level PCs versus a Dragon? I seriously want to know who came up with the idea that PCs should attack a dragon? That's what the module calls for.