D&D 5E How We Beat the HD, HotDQ, Spoilers

[Iosue]

The adventure book, based on what people have written, yourself included, does appear to be missing some vital information that the DM is required to flesh in himself. Probably ok for experienced DMs, a bit lacking for brand new DMs that might not be used to filling in the gaps, especially on the fly. If the intent of 5E is to get new players and DMs playing D&D, a weakly fleshed out flagship adventure is probably not the way to go. The purpose of buying an adventure book is so that the designers give the DM a fairly complete adventure with options and so that the DM does not have to create an adventure from scratch.

The best way for a DM to learn to fill in the gaps in an adventure is to run an adventure that asks them to fill in some gaps. If the DM has never run a game before, that's what Phandelver is for.

I will have to read it after we finish playing it, just to find out the adventure path when the PCs say "Hmmm, Greenest is burning with a dragon flying over it. Time to head in another direction". I'm really curious as to how the heck the DM is supposed to get this back on track when the players decide to head back to Berdusk or Scornubel or wherever. The fact that the entire adventure starts off like this does not really bode well for the designers taking into account that the first casualty of a scripted adventure is the adventure itself.

If the players don't want to play the adventure, there's nothing the adventure writers can do. FWIW, though, the adventure does explain what happens if the adventures sit out the fight (half the town is destroyed and it is completely looted). The adventure doesn't require going to Greenest, though. If they sit it out and go somewhere else they can still be hired for Episode 2.

 

[KarinsDad]

In the sample of HotDQ that Mearls runs here, the PCs do just that. They rescue some villagers, ask about other ways to the keep, and the villagers lead them to the tunnel. The tunnel hasn't been used in years, the entrance is overgrown, and it's barred by an iron gate that's locked on the inside. So it's not a great choice for villagers that don't have adventurers with them. As for the cult and their kobolds, they're not interested in taking the keep; they are there for loot. They have the dragon keeping the militia busy on top the keep, and a small force tying up the sally port so no one can come out in force. They aren't searching the brush and brambles near the river for a five-foot wide tunnel into the keep.

Cool. Good to know that it was a perception based on limited choices only in our game.

 

[KarinsDad]

If the players don't want to play the adventure, there's nothing the adventure writers can do.

It's not a matter of not wanting to play the adventure. That's not the issue.

It's a matter of roleplaying the PCs. First level PCs should really not go anywhere near a blue dragon or a town filled with bad guys.

The entire first part of the adventure is predicated on the concept that all of the PCs will have the same motivation to go in and get killed. From the player's perspective, sure, it's an adventure, so the PCs should be relatively safe (that's the metagaming POV). From the PC's perspective, "Holy crap!!! A Dragon and a burning town.". Yeah there might be a few PCs that are so dedicated to helping others that they would walk into what appears to be suicide (the roleplaying POV), but many PCs should not have that level of altruism.


I know that at our table, there was quite a bit of discussion on this. Metagaming won out over roleplaying, but that was distasteful. Having the designers set this distasteful choice up as the first conundrum of the game, meh. Off on the wrong foot, right off the bat.


I'm sure that at many tables, this either did not even come up, or was not a big deal if it did.

 

[aramis erak]

It's not a matter of not wanting to play the adventure. That's not the issue.

It's a matter of roleplaying the PCs. First level PCs should really not go anywhere near a blue dragon or a town filled with bad guys.

1st level PC's only become 2nd level PC's by tackling challenges that can kill them. If there's no risk, there's no XP.

And, to a 1st level PC, even a CR 1/8 monster is a potentially lethal encounter. A CR 1/8 monster does about 1d6+1 damage, with a +3 to hit, and can take but one decent hit before dropping. On a crit and maximum roll, that's 13 damage. (Double the dice; it doesn't say to double the attribute modifier. So I don't.) 13 damage is sufficient to drop a starting non-(Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger).

Even for a fighter or barbarian, a lucky kobold can kill... a crit and a non-crit, both with high damage rolls, can exceed the maximum of 17 HP the 1st level barbarian can have (12 from d12, +5 from a 20 attribute on rolled atts with a +2 con). In League play, it's a maximum 17 attribute, and thus maximum 16 HP...

 

[Iosue]

It's not a matter of not wanting to play the adventure. That's not the issue.

It's a matter of roleplaying the PCs. First level PCs should really not go anywhere near a blue dragon or a town filled with bad guys.

Now to me, that sounds like metagaming. Characters don't know that they are first level. They don't even know that they can't fight a dragon, or drive it off. Sure, it's dangerous, but people seeking adventure put themselves in danger all the time. Firefighters, police officers, soldiers, skydivers, etc. The 0-level militia men defending the village aren't taking into account their ability within the game to fight a dragon or an invading force.

But, look, everything in episode 1 is predicated on player choice. The PCs aren't punished by the adventure if they don't make the right choices. They can choose not to go into town; nobody thinks less of them for it and adventure provides for that option. They can choose not to go to the keep; the story is not dependent on their doing so, and the adventure provides for that option. Once in the keep, they can choose not to go out again; nobody forces them to or thinks less of them if they don't, and the adventure provides for that option. They can choose not to fight the dragon or the half-dragon; nobody thinks less of them for it and the adventure provides for that option.

Basically, the story opens with a force from the Cult of the Dragon attacking Greenest for loot. That's it. The characters choose where they go from there. They can wait until the attack is over or go in to try to help. If they choose the latter, they can choose to help villagers outside the keep or they can find safety themselves. If they choose to go to the keep, they can help there or go back out to help more villagers.

Sure, the game doesn't explicitly address what to do if the characters abandon Greenest altogether and go somewhere else, but by the same token it doesn't require that they go to Greenest to continue the story, so I'm hard pressed to see that as a failing. OTOH, it does provide Tyranny of Dragons special backgrounds, to help tie characters to the adventure if they want that. Any adventure needs the players to bite on the adventure hooks if they're going to play it. This particular adventure is in the extended adventure path mode, which means the players need to buy into the plot through line if they're going to play it. Within those constraints, I find Hoard of the Dragon Queen excellent for providing player and character choice.

 

[KarinsDad]

1st level PC's only become 2nd level PC's by tackling challenges that can kill them. If there's no risk, there's no XP.

And, to a 1st level PC, even a CR 1/8 monster is a potentially lethal encounter. A CR 1/8 monster does about 1d6+1 damage, with a +3 to hit, and can take but one decent hit before dropping. On a crit and maximum roll, that's 13 damage. (Double the dice; it doesn't say to double the attribute modifier. So I don't.) 13 damage is sufficient to drop a starting non-(Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger).

Even for a fighter or barbarian, a lucky kobold can kill... a crit and a non-crit, both with high damage rolls, can exceed the maximum of 17 HP the 1st level barbarian can have (12 from d12, +5 from a 20 attribute on rolled atts with a +2 con). In League play, it's a maximum 17 attribute, and thus maximum 16 HP...

It doesn't matter.

We are talking about a dragon, not a kobold.

The latter is a potential threat, the former is suicide. The only reason the dragon does not just outright kill the PCs is because this is a game where the designers/DM prevent the dragon from killing the PCs, not because PCs should have any expectation of surviving a dragon.

The entire premise of motivation to enter the first set of encounters is, quite frankly, subpar. The motivation is that of the players, not the PCs. Doing the PC actions because the players know that it is what is expected of them, not because the motivations of the PCs should lead them to do those actions.


If roleplaying your PC based on external out of game motivations is ok for you, fine. Do so.

It's not necessarily fine for all players.

 

[Umbran]

What is your fricking problem dude? Wife not giving you any, anymore?

...

Go away if you do not want to contribute to the conversation in a civilized manner.

Unacceptable. And ironic, at the same time!

KD here won't be back in the conversation for a few days.

Keep it civil, keep it clean, and leave people's sex lives and families *out* of it. Understood, people? If not, take it to e-mail or PM with a moderator.

Thanks.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Now to me, that sounds like metagaming. Characters don't know that they are first level. They don't even know that they can't fight a dragon, or drive it off. Sure, it's dangerous, but people seeking adventure put themselves in danger all the time. Firefighters, police officers, soldiers, skydivers, etc. The 0-level militia men defending the village aren't taking into account their ability within the game to fight a dragon or an invading force.

But, look, everything in episode 1 is predicated on player choice. The PCs aren't punished by the adventure if they don't make the right choices. They can choose not to go into town; nobody thinks less of them for it and adventure provides for that option. They can choose not to go to the keep; the story is not dependent on their doing so, and the adventure provides for that option. Once in the keep, they can choose not to go out again; nobody forces them to or thinks less of them if they don't, and the adventure provides for that option. They can choose not to fight the dragon or the half-dragon; nobody thinks less of them for it and the adventure provides for that option.

Basically, the story opens with a force from the Cult of the Dragon attacking Greenest for loot. That's it. The characters choose where they go from there. They can wait until the attack is over or go in to try to help. If they choose the latter, they can choose to help villagers outside the keep or they can find safety themselves. If they choose to go to the keep, they can help there or go back out to help more villagers.

Sure, the game doesn't explicitly address what to do if the characters abandon Greenest altogether and go somewhere else, but by the same token it doesn't require that they go to Greenest to continue the story, so I'm hard pressed to see that as a failing. OTOH, it does provide Tyranny of Dragons special backgrounds, to help tie characters to the adventure if they want that. Any adventure needs the players to bite on the adventure hooks if they're going to play it. This particular adventure is in the extended adventure path mode, which means the players need to buy into the plot through line if they're going to play it. Within those constraints, I find Hoard of the Dragon Queen excellent for providing player and character choice.

I agree with this, and worded better than I.

The only reason the dragon does not just outright kill the PCs is because this is a game where the designers/DM prevent the dragon from killing the PCs, not because PCs should have any expectation of surviving a dragon..

The dragon doesn't even want to be there to begin with, and really doesn't have an interest in killing everyone. That makes perfect sense from a living world. I.e., intelligent creatures will have their own motivations and personalities. These creatures that would kick the snot out of a level 1 PC still exist, and may still be encountered. Especially if it fits the plot and/or storyline. In my very humble opinion, I think it adds a tremendous amount of fun/excitement/flavor to a game to treat the world like a living world and not one where every non-balanced CR creature suddenly disappears from it, never to be encountered by the PCs. Obviously opinions vary. Inclusion of these types of encounters do not objectively make an adventure badly designed. If level 1 PCs are forced to fight a dragon? Sure, I'd probably agree. But they aren't. So it isn't.

Not every creature needs to be killed, nor does every creature have a murder hardon towards the PCs.

 

[Weezknight]

The entire premise of motivation to enter the first set of encounters is, quite frankly, subpar. The motivation is that of the players, not the PCs. Doing the PC actions because the players know that it is what is expected of them, not because the motivations of the PCs should lead them to do those actions.

Maybe I am very lucky (okay I am very lucky) to have a great group of players, but after reviewing the background of the Sword Coast, and delivering them a quick synopsis of what's been happening lately (re: The Cult of the Dragon), my players took it upon themselves to write the reasons why they have to be in Greenest. Certainly they had no inclinations about what Greenest would look like upon their arrival, but they knew why they were headed here, and, in the eyes of their PC's, those reasons are good enough to get into that town, dragons and fires be darned.

 

[Derren]

Maybe I am very lucky (okay I am very lucky) to have a great group of players, but after reviewing the background of the Sword Coast, and delivering them a quick synopsis of what's been happening lately (re: The Cult of the Dragon), my players took it upon themselves to write the reasons why they have to be in Greenest. Certainly they had no inclinations about what Greenest would look like upon their arrival, but they knew why they were headed here, and, in the eyes of their PC's, those reasons are good enough to get into that town, dragons and fires be darned.

Even during the attack instead of waiting it out till the enemy leaves?
The problem is that the start of the adventure requires the PCs to be heroic stupid and makes that possible by pulling punches.
Not everyone likes that style of adventure.