D&D 5E How We Beat the HD, HotDQ, Spoilers

[KarinsDad]

No, it's not. But that's not what you said. You said, "First level PCs should really not go anywhere near a blue dragon or a town filled with bad guys." That's metagaming.

Are you seriously telling me that you did not understand what I meant?

Inexperienced adventurers not engaging in a straight-up fight with a dragon is not the problem. Inexperienced adventurers totally throwing in the towel and not doing anything because there's a dragon overhead and first level characters don't have the hitpoints to withstand its breath weapon, yeah, that strikes me as metagaming.

Again, semantics. The game is played with a set of number which indicate how strong a game element is. PCs would know that the breath weapon of dragons can burn down an entire village, hence, they know that it would burn them to a crisp as well. The players do not need to know if this is 12D6 or 16D6 or 20D6 of damage, they just know that it's probably a large number of dice.

As I've said repeatedly, PCs are not expected to want to fight a dragon head on, but neither are they expected to completely avoid danger. Nor are they expected to think "dragon = impossible to defeat".

"Nor are they expected to think"... You hit the nail on the head. The game designers (and hence people like yourself) expect the PCs to think in a given way. But guess what? Not everyone thinks in the expected ways, some people think in a more rational "dragon = impossible to defeat" way.

And the expected "dragon is not equal to impossible to defeat" is the metagaming aspect of this. Because it is a module, players are expected to metagame that their PCs will survive an encounter with a dragon.

That's backwards thinking.

Does it really make sense for PCs to approach the dragon so that they get hit full on with a breath weapon right off the bat? I mean, it's not exactly like they stumble across it without meaning to. Reidoth tells them about it and the Folk Hero knows where it is.

I can say the same thing for the other module:

Does it really make sense for PCs to approach the town (or the parapets) so that they get hit full on with a breath weapon right off the bat? I mean, it's not exactly like they stumble across it without meaning to.

The contradiction from one module to the next is there, even if you refuse to admit it.


With regard to LMoP, the folk hero only knows that it is in the town (IIRC, I do not have the sheet in front of me). What if the PCs do not go to "building 4" and talk to Reidoth first?

What if, even if they know that it is in the tower, it attacks them with breath weapon when they get close anyway? Why do DMs insist on playing Dragons with Int 16 (smarter than most of the PCs) stupid? Why does this dragon with a good +7 Perception not hear the PCs coming or fighting in the next building over? Why is he not truly prepared (i.e. ready with breath weapon)?

The dragon isn't attacking PCs or NPCs. It's the Dante Hicks of dragons. It's simply strafing the tower with lightning. It doesn't know PCs from NPCs. Why would it suddenly pick out the specific characters from the dozens of men firing arrows at it? The encounter is set up like a skill challenge (prevent 10 soldiers from dying), but that doesn't mean the characters or the DM can't change the stakes.

Except if the PCs head out onto the parapets and damage him, shouldn't he breath weapon them as well?

Oh right, it's a module written that the dragon won't do that (either that, or PC death).


Some people do not like encounters with Dragons fighting with kid gloves on (pulling their punches is how someone else described it).

If you like playing that way, great. It's implausible to me and kicks me out of my in game verisimilitude.

 

[KarinsDad]

In our session of this adventure, we ran down inside the keep instead of fighting the dragon. The DM was dumbfounded and didnt know what to do. Not sure if the adventure gives the DM insight on common what if scenarios. He had the Mayor guy keep yelling at us to fight the dragon! His men were dying! One of us ran to try to get the guards to get inside the keep, but the guards died and that player gave up. After a bunch of prodding, I cast a cantrip at it and missed on a pretty good roll and then I gave up, thinking it wasnt possible. The DM basically broke and just said all you have to do is deal some damage guys ... come on. Instead of moving the game along. Does the adventure give the DM any idea if the common run away option occurs? I can think of many things to do if the players did this to move it along, but a new DM might do what this DM did and think they are suppose to do this and railroad you into it.

This.


In our game, the crazy fighter went out to attack it. The rest of the PCs hid and yelled for the keep's soldiers to run away.

My PC did something really stupid. I had my Wizard go out on the parapets and cast True Strike on the round that the dragon came down to attack our fighter. The dragon then talked to the fighter and proceeded to take him to 2 hit points with claw/claw/bite (natural 1 on one of the attacks and Heavy Armor Master kept the fighter conscious). The next round, I cast Witch Bolt, intending to head back into the keep afterwards and having the Dragon take autodamage. Duh! I did not realize that it was lightning damage (unlike most D&D spells where I have a rough idea what the spell does regardless of version of D&D, I had never heard of this one and had forgotten what I had read about it). You'd think the word "Bolt" would have given me a clue. Course, even with advantage from Twin Strike, I rolled two 6s and missed, but talk about embarrassing.

 

[Kaychsea]

... on the round that the dragon came down to attack our fighter. The dragon then talked to the fighter and proceeded to take him to 2 hit points with claw/claw/bite

Why? What did you do to change his whole attitude to his job, which is to bottle the garrison in the keep while the cultists loot the town? He specifically doesn't want to get close enough to give the villagers any advantage so is staying at breath weapon range until he gets hurt or told to go home.
Paying attention is really important in the scenario. The fact that Lennithon isn't wreaking havoc directly on the battlements is a clue to his investment in the operation. He's not gloating, he's not doing anything but turning up occasionally to make sure anybody that can get in the cultists way keep their necks well and truly wound in.

 

[KarinsDad]

Why? What did you do to change his whole attitude to his job, which is to bottle the garrison in the keep while the cultists loot the town?

I have no idea. The fighter was yelling at the Dragon in draconic and they had a conversation as the dragon beat the snot out of him. The dragon appeared to be amused that there was someone in the keep that actually thought he could challenge the dragon and the dragon was batting the fighter around like a cat would play with a ball of string.

And, who says that a DM has to run an encounter exactly as scripted?

He specifically doesn't want to get close enough to give the villagers any advantage so is staying at breath weapon range until he gets hurt or told to go home.
Paying attention is really important in the scenario. The fact that Lennithon isn't wreaking havoc directly on the battlements is a clue to his investment in the operation.

No it's not. Just because the adventure might state that this is what he is doing does not mean that any given set of players is going to be able to discern this obscure bit of knowledge.

Players are not psychic. Maybe the dragon is avoiding coming down a lot in order to lure the PCs into a false sense of security.

He's not gloating, he's not doing anything but turning up occasionally to make sure anybody that can get in the cultists way keep their necks well and truly wound in.

Except that he doesn't do that. If he were doing that, then he would come down and kill the PCs in the first battle with kobolds.

 

[Wrathamon]

Why? What did you do to change his whole attitude to his job, which is to bottle the garrison in the keep while the cultists loot the town? He specifically doesn't want to get close enough to give the villagers any advantage so is staying at breath weapon range until he gets hurt or told to go home.
Paying attention is really important in the scenario. The fact that Lennithon isn't wreaking havoc directly on the battlements is a clue to his investment in the operation. He's not gloating, he's not doing anything but turning up occasionally to make sure anybody that can get in the cultists way keep their necks well and truly wound in.

Our DM mentioned that he isn't meant to attack the party, just a challenge to see how many guards you can save before he flies away.

An experienced DM can roleplay this so that its easy for the group to understand, a bad or inexperienced DM might not be able to sell the cinematic nature of this and either A railroad you into knowing a Key to this trick, or B have the dragon attack you (which clearly it wasnt meant to), it can easily kill the entire party, but that could railroad you into running away and not saving the guards. The issue is making the players want to save the guards. If they dont, DMs just move on an explain what happens. Make the players feel for the loss of the guards, how the leader of the town now looks at the group (not heroic but maybe just murder hobos).

The issue isn't the encounter.

It's how the DM presents it, runs it, and "sells" it to the players and how they react to it. The problem could be that its too old school of leave it up to the DM to figure that part out. Maybe more side notes on these cinematic trick type encounters (AD&D glossary term for puzzle trap or maybe this is more like a skill challenge) would have been useful since this is the first/second adventure out of the gate for most new DMs. In the end, it's up to the DM. They could have written a flow chart of possible scenarios but that eats up a lot of space. I havent read it, so I dont know if they did have contingency plans for the DM.

I know both Winters and Baur are great designers (see their past work) so I wouldn't write this up as wow wotc designers sucks (since they arent wotc). They may have had page count issues to deal with and learning the rules as they were writing it. In the end, the DM and players need to "own" the game. The designers/writers are just giving you a canvas, and a sketch (or arranged a bunch of fruit in a bowl on a table) for you to paint.

 

[Kaychsea]

And, who says that a DM has to run an encounter exactly as scripted?

Nobody. In particular the people that wrote the adventure don't. But it seems a waste to ignore some pretty good bits.

Just because the adventure might state that this is what he is doing does not mean that any given set of players is going to be able to discern this obscure bit of knowledge.

Players are not psychic. Maybe the dragon is avoiding coming down a lot in order to lure the PCs into a false sense of security.

Which is why I said that paying attention is important, you know, that bit you didn't quote. Use your characters' skills, talk to the townfolk. Learn rather than assume.

Except that he doesn't do that. If he were doing that, then he would come down and kill the PCs in the first battle with kobolds.

The fact that he doesn't get involved shows that that is exactly what he is doing. The cultists don't want the town destroyed before they can pillage it, they want the garrison holed up so they and the kobolds can roam at will.
The leader of the cultists doesn't become aware of the characters until after the raid for prisoners, losing the dragon and the defence of the sally port add up to something being wrong. This leads directly to the Mill, trying to draw out the new heroes of Greenest. If you aren't heroes, turning the night against the Cult there's no point, they won't notice you.
In that case any of you turning up for the duel will be a surprise. He is probably expecting the sergeant.

 

[Kaychsea]

An experienced DM can roleplay this so that its easy for the group to understand, a bad or inexperienced DM might not be able to sell the cinematic nature of this and either A railroad you into knowing a Key to this trick, or B have the dragon attack you (which clearly it wasnt meant to), it can easily kill the entire party, but that could railroad you into running away and not saving the guards. The issue is making the players want to save the guards. If they dont, DMs just move on an explain what happens. Make the players feel for the loss of the guards, how the leader of the town now looks at the group (not heroic but maybe just murder hobos).

Yes. I heartily agree with this. Dark muttering of "Brave men have died this night" glancing at the characters while bandaging wounds.

The issue isn't the encounter.

It's how the DM presents it, runs it, and "sells" it to the players and how they react to it. The problem could be that its too old school of leave it up to the DM to figure that part out. Maybe more side notes on these cinematic trick type encounters (AD&D glossary term for puzzle trap or maybe this is more like a skill challenge) would have been useful since this is the first/second adventure out of the gate for most new DMs. In the end, it's up to the DM. They could have written a flow chart of possible scenarios but that eats up a lot of space. I havent read it, so I dont know if they did have contingency plans for the DM.

You are probably right about the old-school aspect. It may be a major reason the whole thing resonates with me. There is a huge amount of potential for colour here, for the kind of character building that the people who moan about the BIFTs want in-game. Anyone who stood by their side on the battlements to face down the dragon won't have to buy a drink again when in the town.

I know both Winters and Baur are great designers (see their past work) so I wouldn't write this up as wow wotc designers sucks (since they arent wotc). They may have had page count issues to deal with and learning the rules as they were writing it. In the end, the DM and players need to "own" the game. The designers/writers are just giving you a canvas, and a sketch (or arranged a bunch of fruit in a bowl on a table) for you to paint.

There are little bits throughout that speak of being rushed, and the page count is an important design issue. For instance I think Mearls spoke about the levels of readiness that are mentioned that were dropped by the time the PHB was finalised.

 

[KarinsDad]

Which is why I said that paying attention is important, you know, that bit you didn't quote.

So anyone not intuiting this obscure bit of knowledge is not paying attention?

Got it.

Use your characters' skills, talk to the townfolk. Learn rather than assume.

Or, not go into a burning town with a dragon flying over it at low level to begin with.

The fact that he doesn't get involved shows that that is exactly what he is doing.

It shows nothing of the kind. Just because you read the module and you know this as a DM does not mean that the players are going to intuit this. A creature's actions do not necessarily dictate its thoughts or its motivations.

There could be several reasons why he does not get involved:

1) The townsfolk are beneath him, or
2) He wants everyone to run to the keep so that he does not have to track them down individually to kill them, or
3) He wants kobolds to die for some obscure reason, such as a power struggle in the cult perhaps, or
4) Although his perception is supposed to be high, he doesn't notice PCs sneaking through the town and killing guys on his team.

Who knows why the dragon does what he does? Certainly not the PCs. And saying that the players are not paying attention if they do not figure out what is going on is a bit unfair. They did not read the module. You did.

The cultists don't want the town destroyed before they can pillage it, they want the garrison holed up so they and the kobolds can roam at will.

So this is why they are setting the town on fire, because they do not want the town destroyed? And how does this prevent the dragon from killing PCs and NPCs without destroying the town. It does not need its breath weapon to destroy anything in that town. It could fly down and kick the snot out of anything. And with a directed narrow breath weapon like lightning, it could even do so with its breath weapon.


The entire Greenest scenario seems off. The dragon does not try to kill them. They are expected to attack a dragon. The half dragon does not kill them (or is at least not supposed to). The NPC guards cannot hurt the dragon. The governor has his guards go out on the parapets which is basically suicide. The cultists want to loot the place first, but set it on fire anyway. The low level PCs are just supposed to waltz into an invaded town with a dragon flying overhead. It's just so way out there and implausible.

For a 5E flagship adventure, it seems subpar and forced.

 

[Weezknight]

So this is why they are setting the town on fire, because they do not want the town destroyed? And how does this prevent the dragon from killing PCs and NPCs without destroying the town. It does not need its breath weapon to destroy anything in that town. It could fly down and kick the snot out of anything. And with a directed narrow breath weapon like lightning, it could even do so with its breath weapon.

Actually they are not setting the town on fire. They are setting hay bales, barrels, and other flammable objects to instill fear. When the PCs get into town they realize this. Even the fire at the Mill ends up being a ruse to pull any heroes out into the open.

None of the buildings are actually burning, and the adventure book is careful to mention that fact.

 

[Thaumaturge]

None of the buildings are actually burning, and the adventure book is careful to mention that fact.

They didn't start the fire.

It was always burning.

Thaumaturge.