D&D 5E (2014) How We Beat the HD, HotDQ, Spoilers

[KarinsDad]

That is my point, exactly. I havent read it, only playing it. But, so far to me if has felt like DM issues running the adventure. I'm not sure if the OP sees it that way.

I have had a similar experience as he has, but I have felt it was the DM, not the adventure, that has made the adventure not as fun as it might be. From a player perspective so far it has been pretty crappy.

I actually have had a lot of fun with the adventure. I've suspended my disbelief over certain aspects (like going to a town with a dragon flying over it, or attacking a dragon) and am just going with the flow. It helps to have a group of real close friends to play with.

And I am biased as to the DM (my teenage daughter). I do think that her last encounter (one evidently not in the book) was a bit heavy handed (and way too difficult). Our group had planned an ambush and were ready to run if it was too tough and we never got that chance. She was a bit stoked about her encounter design and I think she really really wanted to run it and kind of shoved it at us. But I do know that we are off the beaten path (staying at the rearguard location for multiple days), so she did have to come up with an out of book solution. After we go try to rescue the Monk (assuming we survive), we are off to Berdusk (which I suspect is really off the beaten path).

 

[Wrathamon]

What's great is ... she is learning, willing to design her own stuff and she is going to get better.

The fact she is willing to DM her Dad means she is a brave kid!






* I refuse to try and teach/dm my wife to play. She is brutal with the questions. I think she would like it, but I can't handle the destruction of my dm ego.

 

[sithramir]

My wife doesn't understand how I can't "win". It's like talking to a wall hah

 

[Wrathamon]

yes i hear that often. Did you win? She now does it just to irritate me. She would find a way to win at D&D thou, which would be making the DM quit in tears.

 

[Derren]

I can see how someone would not like it and blame the design. I also understand that fundamentally, putting in things the players can't possible beat or at least appear to be impossible to beat, doesn't sit well with a lot of people, but I personally don't think that is bad design, I think that is just a design choice that some players and dms arent going to like.

You fail to see the problem.
It is not that there are things in the adventure the PCs can't beat. It is that the adventure still expects the PCs to charge in anyway and attack it and then gives them scripted plot immunity.

People called those encounters tutorials. What will the players learn from it? To charge in and attack everything that moves. If the enemy is too tough they will have plot immunity and wont die. Avoid combat? Why? The adventure is not build for that (except when it is and the players have to read the mind of the DM to know what is correct)

 

[Prism]

You fail to see the problem.
It is not that there are things in the adventure the PCs can't beat. It is that the adventure still expects the PCs to charge in anyway and attack it and then gives them scripted plot immunity.

I have played this episode. At no point did I in any way feel I was supposed to 'charge in' and attack anything. Our party spent most of the time sneaking around trying to avoid combat because clearly there were too many to fight. When we did stumble into combat the creatures tried to kill us.

The dragon can easily be avoided if you want to - no charging in required. The leader of the keep requested our help of course but you can just say no. Or get involved and take a risk. We managed to get rid of the dragon by the 3rd pass of the keep. By this point the DM had ruled that the dragon had singled us out as was about to attack full on. Before that its a case of avoiding the dragon breath - our rogue dropped behind full cover when the dragon approached that part of the castle for example

The half dragon fight certainly doesn't give you immunity from death. In fact our fighter was one death save away before being healed. Again if you don't want to fight him then don't go out

 

[Wrathamon]

Y It is that the adventure still expects the PCs to charge in anyway and attack it and then gives them scripted plot immunity.

I dont think this is true at all. And, no I dont miss the point.

I didnt fight the dragon, I never felt I was expected to. Actually, it was the opposite. I felt it was there for flavor to make us fear something and give us something that we couldnt fight and had to figure out some other way to solve the issue. I never actualy thought we were meant to attack it. The DM made us feel like we did. That is a DM problem. Based on what others have said about how it is written, DMs dont have to railroad you into fighting it. Same with the 1/2 dragon. I wouldnt call these encounters tutorials. I know some people have used that argument but I see it as more of cinematic challenges for players to encounter. I heard one group actually joined the badguys, only to betray them later. The DM had to adlib a lot but it was interesting from what I heard. I totally disagree this adventure is not built for avoiding combat. There are many situations where we just sneaked around and ran from any big threats. Even when the keep was breached we didnt fight much. We focused on getting the door fixed and defended. I didn't feel we had to do even that if we didnt want to, we had an out with the tunnel if we felt we needed to escape.

 

[Wrathamon]

The half dragon fight certainly doesn't give you immunity from death. In fact our fighter was one death save away before being healed. Again if you don't want to fight him then don't go out

This has been spoiled for me ... Everyone seems to be mad that the adventure says just replace him with another 1/2 dragon. Ok maybe they should have written more into this but if I was running this adventure and the players killed him.

I would A) if the cultist can drag his body out, he gets resurrected and become more powerful but still bares the scar of his defeat, and he now hates the PCs who defeated him. you just created an epic villain. or B) another different looking 1/2 dragon gets promoted (which I think this is what happens) and it makes sense to me that this would happen. I would make sure it is known that he is different and clear that they tend to promote these 1/2 dragon men to positions of leadership. I would make it seem like it wasn't insignificant, the players would be enemy number one because they are clearly powerful threats, but I am guessing if this rare case occurs the DM needs to figure it out.

If I went out to fight this guy and lost but lived and saw him again later .. its on! If he kills my character by curb stomping him (which is said that he could do) Both cases, I now have a rival in this campaign. I want to beat up darth vader for beating me or killing my obi one.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'm really beginning to see the two sides of this argument. One side thinks every encounter the PCs could possibly face should be beatable in combat. No exceptions or it's bad game design. The other side thinks that not all encounters the PCs should face should be beatable, especially if they offer other things to the game play experience besides strictly combat.

At least that's my impression. And obviously I fall under the second camp.

 

[Wrathamon]

I agree.

3rd slowly trained us to think this is true (that all encounters were winnable) you could have 4 in a day and then start to worry.
4th continued this premise in it was a foundation for the game. you never ran from anything because it should be winnable unless the players "pushed" too far.

I never liked this about either of these ideas... gamers hate to loose. (i.e. see video games - lose put a quarter in, ok now you have some lives, ok now you can save progress with a password, ok now it just autosaves at the beginning of a level, ok now there are checkpoints in a level, ok now you an save anywhere, ok now it autosaves all the time, okay now you rewind back in time to the point you fail to start over, ok you just cant fail you just always win)