D&D 5E How We Beat the HD, HotDQ, Spoilers

[KarinsDad]

As the first full official published campaign of a new edition, HotDQ puts an awfully big burden on the DM to finesse some very complicated, highly variable situations and keep the story moving within some rather strict parameters.

Any DM with little or no experience is bound to do what my (experienced, if slightly rusty) DM did and basically tell the characters how to proceed. He tried to couch his direction as hints ("Your characters know that course of action would probably get them killed," or "The honorable thing to do would be such and such," or "Here is an unrealistic option that seems totally logical to your characters because reasons!"); however, we as players felt constantly frustrated and railroaded at every turn.

(Basically, if you have to tell me what my character thinks or believes -- as opposed to what he sees or objectively knows -- something has gone terribly wrong.)

I think the main problem is that in trying to make the story seem epic, they've created a module that's very linear and heavy-handed. A good published adventure gives a thorough background and description of the setting, but only a broad sketch of how the plot will likely advance. This one is just the opposite -- it gives a sketchy background and a vague setting, but a detailed, rigid sequence of events that must be followed or the whole thing falls apart.

At least, that's my impression as a player who has neither completed the adventure nor actually read the material.

Mine as well.

The DM actually mentioned that she thought that some parts of it were really not thought out that well. For example, the guards at the keep have spears instead of bows (she gave bows to the ones that backed our group up in the half dragon fight). I suspect that the intent of this was so that the guards could not try to prevent foes (including the dragon) from coming within several hundred feet of the keep. It's a detail that when viewed in hindsight makes sense from an adventure design POV (i.e. if the guards do not have bows, they cannot help in any battle near the keep), but makes very little sense from a plausibility POV. The guards in a keep required to keep order in and defend an unwalled town do not have bows? What? In our game (do not know about the module), the PCs were actually even able to acquire bows and arrows in the keep.

Granted, with us knowing the rules now, bows would not have helped in some situations since firing into the dark has disadvantage, but it is just one of the details where even an inexperienced DM said "What?".

She even said that one of the sections (I do not know which one) is so totally bad and illogical that she had to drop it from the adventure.

 

[Prism]

It only attacks from distance with its breath attack rather than getting up close and personal with the characters. No teeth, claws, wings or tail. And it runs off when hurt rather than getting even.
That sounds like pulling punches to me.

If his job was to kill the characters then I guess so. But he has no knowledge of the characters at all and doesn't fancy attacking a keep full of armed warriors from what I can tell. He has no idea if there are any more powerful warriors in the keep. Much safer to attack from range - not that he really wants to do that either, which is why he heads off given any excuse.Not every dragon wants to rip your head off and fancies risking everything by attack a mass of humans who may be quite capable of dealing him serious damage in melee

 

[Thaumaturge]

No, that helps.

So Greenest in Flames was supposed to be a "Combat as sport" adventure disguised as a "Combat as war" adventure?

In other words, the DM knows that the bad guys are basically impossible to beat (without DM assistance), but the players do not know that. The adventure is combat as sport because the goal of the really tough monsters is not to kill the PCs. But it looks like a combat as war because on the surface, it appears that the battle are asymmetric.

I'd say it's just straight "combat as war". There's a dragon. If characters make mistakes in engaging it, they die. My wife's character ran to the parapits as the dragon was making his second run. If there hadn't been a lucky critical, which made the dragon decide it just wasn't worth it, she would had been fried when the dragon breathed. I was certain her PC was a goner. That's not me adding anything to the adventure. That's how it's written.

Also, the half-dragon is just a more powerful character in the world. When the PCs interact with him, they may (or may not) think they can take him. But they can't, which strikes me as combat as war, as there is nothing sporting about that encounter at all. It's not fair. The PC is a junior high team, and the half-dragon is a ranked college team. People who enjoy combat as war are more likely to enjoy that encounter than people who prefer combat as sport. I think.

Thaumaturge.

 

[KarinsDad]

If there hadn't been a lucky critical, which made the dragon decide it just wasn't worth it, she would had been fried when the dragon breathed. I was certain her PC was a goner. That's not me adding anything to the adventure. That's how it's written.

It doesn't matter. It was written as "combat as sport". The PCs are not supposed to die (even in a normal combat as sport adventure, good or bad dice rolls can result in a death).

If it were written as "combat as war" like you suggest, then that sentence would not have been in the adventure. A different sentence like "if someone criticals the dragon, the dragon uses its breath weapon if possible, or comes down and claw/claw/bites".


It's only combat as war if both sides actually want to fight. A D6+3 sling doing an extra D6 does 10 average points instead of 7 and this drives the dragon off? That's combat as sport (just disguised as combat as war because the dragon appears tough).


Real combat as war means that the DM will not be pulling punches or skewing the results of an encounter in favor of the PCs, just because they are PCs. This adventure purposely skews the encounter in favor of the PCs surviving.

 

[Kaychsea]

If his job was to kill the characters then I guess so. But he has no knowledge of the characters at all and doesn't fancy attacking a keep full of armed warriors from what I can tell. He has no idea if there are any more powerful warriors in the keep. Much safer to attack from range - not that he really wants to do that either, which is why he heads off given any excuse.Not every dragon wants to rip your head off and fancies risking everything by attack a mass of humans who may be quite capable of dealing him serious damage in melee

You asked if he was pulling his punches, he does and I showed how.
The why is the intersting part. The cult have brought him in to keep the garrison bottled up in the keep so the cult can loot Greenest without intervention. As he's been at it for a while and nobody has had any success he's probably pretty sure that he hasn't much to worry about. It's also not his fight and he doesn't care that much, hence legging it if the fight shows any sign of turning against him.

 

[Thaumaturge]

It's only combat as war if both sides actually want to fight.

I fundamentally disagree.

Thaumaturge.

 

[KarinsDad]

I fundamentally disagree.

Thaumaturge.

Ok. That's your prerogative.

This does, however, show a difference in thought processes. One reason people have problems with this scenario is that they roleplay their low level PCs to fear dragons. Not just a little bit. A lot. And, rightfully so. If the module is going to modify assumed dragon behavior to quasi-protect those PCs, regardless of the players knowing it or not, then the module is going into a realm of trying to fake out the players. It's a bit disingenuous to think that a dragon will not try to kill anyone who attacks it. But, that is what this module does.

I am all for scenarios where PCs try to negotiate with a dragon, but scenarios where the PCs attack the dragon and it more or less quickly runs away is nonsensical and implausible. I prefer scenarios that are plausible. Obviously, YMMV.

 

[Kaychsea]

This adventure purposely skews the encounter in favor of the PCs surviving.

Probably a good thing in the first chapter in a long adventure arc. Just think what it would be like if they really didn't like you.

As with most of the events in Greenest I think it's there to set tone for later in the book. Take the duel with Cyanwrath. Done well you end up with an arrogant villain that you look forward to providing just desserts, done badly it's just an annoying fight. Whether you win or lose there are repercussions.

I'm not sure that the adventure as written is set to hand hold people as much as you sem to think. There are bits that should scare the beejeezus out of you that are designed not to gut you on sight, but if you don't approach the more mundane passages with a fair bit of respect you will be feeding a fair sized family of kobolds for the next few weeks.

 

[KarinsDad]

Probably a good thing in the first chapter in a long adventure arc. Just think what it would be like if they really didn't like you.

As with most of the events in Greenest I think it's there to set tone for later in the book. Take the duel with Cyanwrath. Done well you end up with an arrogant villain that you look forward to providing just desserts, done badly it's just an annoying fight. Whether you win or lose there are repercussions.

I'm not sure that the adventure as written is set to hand hold people as much as you sem to think. There are bits that should scare the beejeezus out of you that are designed not to gut you on sight, but if you don't approach the more mundane passages with a fair bit of respect you will be feeding a fair sized family of kobolds for the next few weeks.

I do not disagree (especially if many of the PCs do not have stealth).

It's funny, but we probably would not be having this long conversation if there just wasn't a dragon in Greenest at all.

The half dragon fight is an annoying encounter from my perspective, but it's not a serious adventure hook weakness like the dragon is (IMO).

 

[Kaychsea]

I do not disagree (especially if many of the PCs do not have stealth).

It's funny, but we probably would not be having this long conversation if there just wasn't a dragon in Greenest at all.

The half dragon fight is an annoying encounter from my perspective, but it's not a serious adventure hook weakness like the dragon is (IMO).

Mouseferatu had an interesting piece in one of his blog posts that contained this gem

If I'm a player as opposed to a DM--and let's keep in mind that a majority of gamers are, indeed, players and not DMs--then that's no longer true. I'm no longer experiencing most of the game directly, but through a filter. A filter with its own opinions, its own preferences, and--perhaps most importantly--its own skill level (or lack thereof).

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/entry.php?2867-The-DM-Filter#ixzz3EwCiltMR

He's discussing the Temple of Elemental Evil, but I think this is even more relevant for HotDQ. My reading of it makes it seem very sandboxish. There are few things that must happen to progress the story, some episodes more so than others, each problem has so many ways to skin a cat it looks like a hat factory and there are plenty of hooks for trips into the blue yonder. But most of the complaints I've seen about it are that people are feeling conned or railroaded, things I don't see on the page.
Ultimately there is a linear element to it, the pace of the narrative is driven by external events outside the characters control, but to do otherwise would be to provide no challenge. Fall too far behind the Cult and they are lost, that can be hard to recover.

Ed for spelling.