D&D 5E How would you do the sword mage in 5e?

Clint_L

Legend
It's weird how so many people think paladin and ranger are inherently fine and balanced, while an arcane version will always be inherently op.
I think most people think rangers are a bit weak and paladins are a bit OP.

If you tweaked smite a bit, paladins would be fine and if you changed out the flavour and some of the spells start to look a lot like a sword mage. Replace lay on hands with an arcane ability, etc.

Rangers have the problem that a lot of their abilities are situational and many of their spells aren't a ton better than just using their weapon.

You could probably just do an arcane paladin sub-class and make a very good sword mage. Though I think Eldritch Knights already work pretty well if you prefer the emphasis more on the sword than the mage.

One of the issues bedevilling this archetype is that a lot of people have a different vision of it, which speaks to it maybe needing to be its own class with a variety of subclasses, but then you start to get a lot of sub-classes that look like subtle variations on what is already in the game - paladins, Eldritch Knights, Hexblades, even artificers. Not to mention the multi-class options that already exist.
 

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I have to wonder if its because people look at the unrestricted spell list and think 'no way!'

Meanwhile I would be quite happy with a bunch of restrictions, as long as what I envision, is possible regarding using the sword as the focus for spell and spell-like ability.

I'll probably write it up later, but it is weird, for sure.
Yeah no way should it have an unrestricted wizard or sorcerer list. Blasting spells like fireball and burning hands shouldn't be available to it, as well as many others. However it should have lots of spells which work like those of paladin and ranger. Ones like thunderous smite which are utilised via weapons.
One of the issues bedevilling this archetype is that a lot of people have a different vision of it, which speaks to it maybe needing to be its own class with a variety of subclasses, but then you start to get a lot of sub-classes that look like subtle variations on what is already in the game - paladins, Eldritch Knights, Hexblades, even artificers. Not to mention the multi-class options that already exist.
I think the differing name and lore for the class every single edition hasn't helped with consolidating a vision of archetype. It's like ranger, but at least ranger has always had a consistent class name to rally it's arguing playerbase under, no matter their differences.

Bladesinger, Eldritch Knight, Duskblade, Magus, Swordmage.

All are acting as classes with a slightly similar theme and mechanical niche, but differing details which has prevented any consolidated vision ever forming.
 



Clint_L

Legend
I'd be perfectly fine with a swordmage that doesn't get Extra Attack but instead gets stronger magic attacks.
That seems weak, though, doesn't it? Because your spells are going to be at a lower level relative to a full caster. What if their thing was that, starting at level 5, for one action they could do either two attacks or a single attack plus a spell or a paired spell?
 

Staffan

Legend
That seems weak, though, doesn't it? Because your spells are going to be at a lower level relative to a full caster. What if their thing was that, starting at level 5, for one action they could do either two attacks or a single attack plus a spell or a paired spell?
I don't want them casting spells. I have no use whatsoever for a swordmage with things like mirror image or blur. The type of swordmage I want would work better with some other type of resource management and special abilities.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I'd be perfectly fine with a swordmage that doesn't get Extra Attack but instead gets stronger magic attacks.
I very strongly agree with @Voadam but for different reasons. 5e trivialized the ability to be a gish & the result is casters who have overly restrained casting. If swordmage deserves to be a thing it needs to find a niche that's not "totally a full caster but built for front lines" because then casters need to be restrained in ways that keep a "swordmage"from being 6e's munchkin favorite.
 

Staffan

Legend
I wouldn't. Half the attacks of a valor bard would feel off to me.
They'd generally have other boosts to their attacks instead. Think something like the cleric domains that give +1d8 to one attack per round, maybe with some sort of minor element-based debuff on top. And that's when they aren't using limited resources.

Ideally, a swordmage in conservation mode would deal a bit less damage than an actual martial, but quite a bit more when they let loose plus having more options for mobility and control.
 

ECMO3

Legend
Rangers have the problem that a lot of their abilities are situational and many of their spells aren't a ton better than just using their weapon.

If you consider all 3 phases of the game, IME a Fey Wanderer Ranger with the shadow touched feat and a 20 Wisdom is the strongest class there is from levels 9-14 or so. They have no weaknesses or liabilities they are amazing at social skills, beating even Bards if they put their expertise there, they are the best wilderness/exploration guys in the game, they are good damage dealers in combat using weapons and their concentration-free Summon Fey and Cause Fear with beguiling twist are awesome controllers and breaks action economy. As icing on the cake, add in a few hundred goodberries after a day of no encounters and you have an extremely strong character.

Awesome controller, Awesome Face, Awesome explorer, Great Hit points, Good damage dealer, Servicible healer

In terms of being a Gish, they are more caster than fighter most of the time, but they are really powerful in those levels (and no slouch at earlier or higher levels either).

You could probably just do an arcane paladin sub-class and make a very good sword mage. Though I think Eldritch Knights already work pretty well if you prefer the emphasis more on the sword than the mage.

EKs, twoArtificers and Bladesingers are all Arcane Gishes, which makes the landscape pretty crowded already. That said if you want a half caster I agree the Paladin Chassis makes the most sense, and I think I posted an example of this earlier (if not here than on another thread).

The problem I see with a lot of swordmage proposals are the mechanics are too powerful or at least on the more powerful side. The claim is not that the idea of an Arcane Gish is OP, but rather that the implementations offered are.

People say they want a Swordmage and want the flavor, but then they want that character to be on the high end of the power scale, up there with a Bladesinger instead of on the lower end and more equivalent to the Monk. This creates a problem because this is not playtested. I think if you are designing a new class you should shoot for the lower end in terms of capability and power, but most of the suggestions I have seen are on the high end powerwise.

In any case, here is what I posted earlier using the Paladin Chassis through level 10:

Intelligence and Dexterity saves, select spells as spells known for a half caster but allow selections from either Paladin or Wizard lists.

Level 1: Trade Divine Sense for proficiency in Arcana or Acrobatics. Trade Lay on Hands for Ritual Casting
Level 2: Fighting Style (allow all fighter styles), Keep Divine Smite (maybe call it arcane smite)
Level 3: Trade Divine Health for two Wizard cantrips.
Level 4: ASI
Level 5: Extra Attack
Level 6: Trade Aura of Protection for ability to use your weapon as a focus for spells
Level 7: Get a third Wizard Cantrip
Level 8: ASI
Level 9:
Level 10: Trade Aura of Courage for the Bladesinger version of Extra Attack

If you did that and made it flat with no subclass, I think that combination would be where it needs to be while incorporating most of the flavor people want through spell selection . By making it a spells known caster, removing Aura of Protection and subclass abilities you keep it from eclipsing the Paladin in power even with the larger spell pool. By pushing the Bladesinger extra attack to level 10 you keep it behind the bladesinger at least until that point.
 
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Scribe

Legend
LevelBard (Sword)Fighter ChampFighter EKFighter PsiFighter RunePaladinBladesinger
1Casting (1st), InspirationFighting StyleFighting StyleFighting StyleFighting StyleLoH, Divine SenseCasting (1st)
2JackSurgeSurgeSurgeSurgeCasting (1st), Smite, Fighting StyleBladesong
3Fighting Style, Flourish, Expertise, Casting (2nd)Imp CritCasting (1st), Weapon BondPsi PowerRunes (2), Giant MightOathCasting (2nd)
4ASIASIASIASIASIASIASI
5Inspiration, Casting (3rd)2nd Attack2nd Attack2nd Attack2nd Attack2nd Attack, Casting (2nd)Casting (3rd)
62nd AttackASIASIASIASIAura of Prot2nd Attack
7Casting (4th)AthleteCasting (2nd), War MagicTele AdeptRunes (3), ShieldOathCasting (4th)
8ASIASIASIASIASIASIASI
9Rest, Casting (5th)IndomIndomIndomIndomCasting (3rd)Casting (5th)
10Inspiration, Magic Secrets2nd Fight StyleEldritch StrikeGuarded MindRunes (4), StatureAura of CourageSong of Defense
11Casting (6th)3rd Attack3rd Attack3rd Attack3rd AttackImproved Divine SmiteCasting (6th)
12ASIASIASIASIASIASIASI
13Rest, Casting (7th)IndomIndom, Casting (3rd)IndomIndomCasting (4th)Casting (7th)
14Magic Secrets, Master FlourishASIASIASIASICleanseSong of Victory
15Inspiration, Casting (8th)Superior CritArcane ChargeBulwarkRunes (5), Master RunesOathCasting (8th)
16ASIASIASIASIASIASIASI
17Casting (9th)Surge, IndomSurge, IndomSurge, IndomSurge, IndomCasting (5th)Casting (9th)
18Magic SecretsSurvivorImproved War MagicTele MasterRunic JuggerAurasSpell Master
19ASIASIASI, Casting (4th)ASIASIASIASI
20Sup Inspiration4th Attack4th Attack4th Attack4th AttackOathSig Spells

Anything jump out as flat out missing or wrong here? Red is for martial type boosts, Green is to call out caster levels, or casting type abilities.

I'd say that if any of them are closest, its still between the EK and Paladin, but neither of them are a perfect fit.

The hang up, to me, is that we should be both martial, and casting, in synergy, at level 1.
 

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