D&D 5E How would you ensure longevity and sustainability for 5th Edition?

[Jester David]

Wow! I concede my point then, I was very much mistaken.

The linked content is deceptively large.

Keep in mind that a lot of the quoted products were small adventures. We've seen arguably more pages of adventure text than 1e-3e. Tyranny of Dragons alone is equivalent to six 32-page adventures.
The 1e list in particular contains some 16-page modules, which were actually reprints of old convention modules. Arguably, Princes of the Apocalypse alone contains more adventure material than was released in all of 1978.

The 2e list includes some Basic D&D content.

The 3.0e list is a little longer than it should be, including products that came out closer to a year-and-a-half after launch.

The 3.5e list includes Fiend Folion, Ghostwalk, and Savage Species, which were 3.0 products. The 3.5e books also had the advantage of updating a lot of the Prestige Classes and content from the small 3.0e class sourcebooks.


5e is slow. But still faster than 1e and comparable to 3.0 in adventure (if not more content). The big difference is that 5e doesn't have PC content. And if you remove the PC option books from any edition's schedule, they look at lot more comparable to the number of releases for 5e.

 

[Jessica]

D&D has better content to work with than WoW. It's a matter of capitalizing the business until you took market share from WoW. It is also leveraging your intellectual content correctly. I have a pretty clear vision how I would do it. I believe if capitalized properly, I could unseat WoW or least take 50% of their subscriber base.

MMOs using various popular licenses including Lord of the Rings, Conan, Warhammer, and Star Wars have all gone up against WoW and have all failed to take over it's place in the market with Warhammer Online actually being defunct now. Experienced MMO developers producing sequels to popular MMOs such as Guild Wars and Everquest have failed to take the spot from WoW. They've managed to take tiny portions of WoW's subscriber base which hurts WoW in the long run, but I think general wisdom is that right now the only thing that kill WoW is WoW.

When WoW was released, MMOs were still primarily for hardcore players and a niche genre. WoW was a very casual friendly game(yes even in Vanilla WoW) that attempted to appeal to a mass audience by removing massive penalties for death*, being able to be played solo**, running on older computers, made leveling faster***, and just came off of a very successful Warcraft 3 game and expansion. WoW was still unfinished and buggy when it came out and still had a lot of problems but there wasn't any serious competitors at the time to punish them. Any MMOs nowadays has to try to come into a market where there is an already reigning champion and they generally have to have a large amount of publicity and an incredibly solid game with plenty of content and many of the bells and whistles that MMO players are used to to even have a chance at unseating WoW. Chances are no knew MMO will take over until WoW is in it's final days and even then I have this feeling that a post-WoW MMO world will probably be a lot more decentralized with one MMO maybe having a plurality of active players at best due to the change of most MMOs from a subscription model to a F2P model.

*It might cost you a small amount of gold/silver/copper to repair damaged gear while other games might make you lose your equipment entirely or take away chunks of xp gained

**Many other MMOs before WoW often required you to have a group of people to even try and gaining levels or progressing through the game. WoW generally only requires you to group when you want to find a group for a dungeon or at max level when you want to join a PvE raid. You could level from 1-60 without ever entering a group if you wanted to.

***I never played original Everquest but I had friends who did and from what I understand it would take even hard core players several months to reach max level from character creation and that was with being able to get into groups to gain levels. I think my first character in WoW to get from level 1-60 took 12 days played(as in 12 actual 24 hour periods) and that was me being a noob at it.

 

[painted_klown]

I have said it before in other (similar) threads, but I feel it bears repeating here.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with the 5E rule set. I believe it is already simple enough that new players can learn it without too much trouble/issue.

I also feel there is nothing wrong with the current release schedule. Rules bloat leads to too much complexity and makes it difficult to lure new players because of said complexity, and cost of "buying into" the game.

What I feel will make 5E a long term success story is education. Educating the consumer is the #1 thing to insure 5E is the "evergreen edition" IMO.

Prior to 5E, I was under the impression that all D&D books were rules books for the game. I had no idea there were different editions, nor that there are 3 core rulebooks, or anything else...I just knew there was a wall of books, and that I had no idea of where to start.

If I had not met an old school player (who is currently running PF), I would still NOT be playing D&D, nor understanding what I do now. He explained everything to me. Multiple editions, the books I (the DM) actually need, the books the players actually need, etc. I was a "wanna-be D&D'er" lost in a sea of confusion. I imagine there are a LOT of potential players exactly where I was about a year ago.

To solve this problem, WotC needs to educate the consumer. They can start with re-vamping their horrible, horrible web site. It cannot be navigated successfully by anyone!!! Heck, there's even a thread dedicated to that fact on this very forum.

WotC need to make the "landing/home page" a "Welcome to d&d 5th edition" type page. On this page, begin explaining to new visitors that D&D has been through several editions in the past, and that 5E is the latest and greatest.

Then explain that ONLY 5E books and materials are needed to play. Clearly state that anything NOT 5E is essentially a different game, with different rules. They need to clearly explain what the 3 core books are, and how they relate to each other. Then explain what adventure paths/modules are, and how they relate to the 3 core books.

Make it obvious that no other (older) books, or non-core books, are required to play the game. State all of this with the least amount of wording necessary. Make it very clear that "Dungeons & Dragons IS fifth edition".

Explain the basics of players needed. A DM and PC's. Explain that there needs to be one DM and at 3-5 PCs for a good game. Explain the DM is only one who needs to purchase all 3 core rule books, and that players only need to purchase a SINGLE book, the Player's Handbook. That's it, one purchase, and you have what you need to play the game. If that purchase is too steep for you at the moment, or if you want to "try it before you buy it" then direct them to the free, legal, PDFs available on their website.

The home page for the TTRPG must also be free of the other D&D branded stuff such as boardgames (can be confused for as box set), video games (I thought D&D was a PnP game?), or ANY other D&D merch that is NOT the PnP TTRPG. Do not confuse already confused consumers.

As someone who wanted to play D&D long before I ever did, I felt the #1 "barrier" (by far) was not knowing where to start & what books I needed.

With the seemingly endless slew of books available for D&D, and non-players not being aware that there are several different editions (and essentially several different games all called D&D), it becomes VERY confusing quickly when you head to a game shop without a clue...even when the desire is there.

Now that I have said all of that. WotC also needs to make the rules for creating a character easier to understand. I had to use several different online sources before I finally figured it out. The instructions in the PHB aren't very good at all IMO. Confusing, in the wrong order, and doesn't explain how to get the info they are asking you to fill in.

Suggested up thread was the idea of well made videos. I think a series of short videos for noobs would go a long way in attracting new players, Explain everything I have mentioned regarding the books, past editions, etc in the first video. Give a little history of the game, then explain where it's at now. Talk about the 3 core books, talk about the players, talk about what each of those players need to play the game, etc.

The second video should be how to roll up characters.

Third video should be a combat tutorial with a sample combat encounter or two.

Fourth video can put it all together have have a short, sample game session.

IMO, VMMV, Etc

 

[Patrick McGill]

I have said it before in other (similar) threads, but I feel it bears repeating here.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with the 5E rule set. I believe it is already simple enough that new players can learn it without too much trouble/issue.

I also feel there is nothing wrong with the current release schedule. Rules bloat leads to too much complexity and makes it difficult to lure new players because of said complexity, and cost of "buying into" the game.

What I feel will make 5E a long term success story is education. Educating the consumer is the #1 thing to insure 5E is the "evergreen edition" IMO.

Prior to 5E, I was under the impression that all D&D books were rules books for the game. I had no idea there were different editions, nor that there are 3 core rulebooks, or anything else...I just knew there was a wall of books, and that I had no idea of where to start.

If I had not met an old school player (who is currently running PF), I would still NOT be playing D&D, nor understanding what I do now. He explained everything to me. Multiple editions, the books I (the DM) actually need, the books the players actually need, etc. I was a "wanna-be D&D'er" lost in a sea of confusion. I imagine there are a LOT of potential players exactly where I was about a year ago.

To solve this problem, WotC needs to educate the consumer. They can start with re-vamping their horrible, horrible web site. It cannot be navigated successfully by anyone!!! Heck, there's even a thread dedicated to that fact on this very forum.

WotC need to make the "landing/home page" a "Welcome to d&d 5th edition" type page. On this page, begin explaining to new visitors that D&D has been through several editions in the past, and that 5E is the latest and greatest.

Then explain that ONLY 5E books and materials are needed to play. Clearly state that anything NOT 5E is essentially a different game, with different rules. They need to clearly explain what the 3 core books are, and how they relate to each other. Then explain what adventure paths/modules are, and how they relate to the 3 core books.

Make it obvious that no other (older) books, or non-core books, are required to play the game. State all of this with the least amount of wording necessary. Make it very clear that "Dungeons & Dragons IS fifth edition".

Explain the basics of players needed. A DM and PC's. Explain that there needs to be one DM and at 3-5 PCs for a good game. Explain the DM is only one who needs to purchase all 3 core rule books, and that players only need to purchase a SINGLE book, the Player's Handbook. That's it, one purchase, and you have what you need to play the game. If that purchase is too steep for you at the moment, or if you want to "try it before you buy it" then direct them to the free, legal, PDFs available on their website.

The home page for the TTRPG must also be free of the other D&D branded stuff such as boardgames (can be confused for as box set), video games (I thought D&D was a PnP game?), or ANY other D&D merch that is NOT the PnP TTRPG. Do not confuse already confused consumers.

As someone who wanted to play D&D long before I ever did, I felt the #1 "barrier" (by far) was not knowing where to start & what books I needed.

With the seemingly endless slew of books available for D&D, and non-players not being aware that there are several different editions (and essentially several different games all called D&D), it becomes VERY confusing quickly when you head to a game shop without a clue...even when the desire is there.

Now that I have said all of that. WotC also needs to make the rules for creating a character easier to understand. I had to use several different online sources before I finally figured it out. The instructions in the PHB aren't very good at all IMO. Confusing, in the wrong order, and doesn't explain how to get the info they are asking you to fill in.

Suggested up thread was the idea of well made videos. I think a series of short videos for noobs would go a long way in attracting new players, Explain everything I have mentioned regarding the books, past editions, etc in the first video. Give a little history of the game, then explain where it's at now. Talk about the 3 core books, talk about the players, talk about what each of those players need to play the game, etc.

The second video should be how to roll up characters.

Third video should be a combat tutorial with a sample combat encounter or two.

Fourth video can put it all together have have a short, sample game session.

IMO, VMMV, Etc

I agree entirely. I think focusing on educating new people is an absolute must. Regardless of a release schedule, this more than anything will ensure longevity of the brand.

D&D already sits at a unique spot on the RPG map; that of the gatekeeper. Most people start at D&D city before venturing off into the frontier of more niche or less known games. That should be used to it's greatest advantage.

I still think that WotC NEEDS to produce brochures with a sample character in it and a summary of the basic rules to send to game stores when they order product, asking them to put it on the counter. The pamphlet should have everything you need to start playing the game, making PUGing at a game store easy. See a game taking shape and want to play? Grab a pamphlet.

 

[Lojak]

I will preface this by saying I know nothing about how to make money as a game publisher. Still, I will go against the grain and say I think more is better than less. This keeps shelf space (even virtual shelf space) ever changing and engaging. It also generates interest and buzz in the community. More specifically, I would:

1. Insider Accounts. I would reintroduce insider accounts that included a char generator, monster generator, compendium, and other online content. The purpose of this is to generate a steady and fixed revenue stream. I was a subscriber to the 4e version of this for years. That is money that WotC does not get from me now. Currently, they basically are not selling anything most of the time and therefore do not get my money (particularly since I do not buy Adventure Paths).

2. Settings. I would do a setting a year. I would link other content to the setting including an adventure or two, a monster book, and likely some player crunch (races, spells, class builds). Whole communites have built up around certain settings like Eberron or Forgotten Realms. Those communities are not being supported (or monetized) currently.

3. Adventures. I would license out or write on my own more, shorter adventures. Go back to the soft cover adventure that will only last a few sessions. The starter set adventure is frankly the best adventure that WotC has put out for 5e. They should do more adventures like that and fewer campaign long slogs. Have some adventures for each setting you have published and some that are setting agnostic. There is a market for short adventures. Heck, there used to be an entire magazine devoted to them that Paizo managed to parley into Pathfinder since their adventure writing skills gained them so much goodwill.

4. DM Resources. I would do some DM resource books. Specifically, I would do additional monster manual books. I would consider doing other things like City Books, Environment Books, Magic Item Emporiums, etc. if I thought I could make money on them. But at a minum, more (and more interesting) monsters. There has been a lot of monster criticism out there and I would try to treat that feedback as a gift and come up with new, exciting monsters.

 

[Mark CMG]

How would you ensure longevity and sustainability for 5th Edition?

This hypothetical is inspired by Mike's comments about the expected playbook when it comes to rpgs. Specifically, he said that players have a script that turns out badly for publishers.

The problem is that corporation-publishers need to cycle RPGs through editions to maintain a revenue stream and interest in the brand for additional properties. If you want an edition to continue to be played, regardless of the publisher's plans, the market needs tons of material that it cannot manage to use up during the publishing cycle and/or an OGL and third party publishers to extend the cycle as an additional source of material. I'd imagine his comments aren't about the game living on so much as being sustainable as a revenue stream.

Tons of people still play first edition because there is tons of material for it, and 2nd edition material can be readily used, and third party publishers now produce material for it. So, too, 3.XE has so much for it from WotC and third party publishers that folks can play it into their graves and pass on stuff they haven't played to their children, plus they could easily use PF material if it comes to it.

People don't need a perfect game for it to continue to be played, they need someone to manage the brand and let the community grow the game for them. The folks left at WotC should start thinking of themselves as stewards and less so as gatekeepers.

 

[Mark CMG]

IMO, VMMV, Etc

What do you think of the Starter Set for 5E?

 

[werecorpse]

1. I would release (either through licences or in house) about 4 approximately 32 page softcover adventures a year, and only one adventure path every year or couple of years. The purpose of this is to keep the quality of the adventure path story high and make it a big deal not just the thing that there are heaps of. If you are just releasing adventure paths with a big cost investment required means if the customer doesn't like that adventure path you don't buy anything. The 32 page dungeons would be more able to be plugged in to a campaign or played as stand alone.
2. I would have an online magazine like the old Dungeon magazine but coming out maybe 6 times a year with 3-4 adventures each time. This would encourage subscription and could be based on input from players.
3. I would release very few player expansion books and those that were released would cover no or few new rules or classes just subclasses, spells, equipment and backgrounds (i.e. Just small adds to the player stuff)
4. I would release some new DM expansion books that gave more things for DMs to use such as monsters, magic items, rules for underwater, mass combat etc.

The theme of this is that once you have the rules to play the main stuff you release is stuff to play with. Monsters, adventures etc. not changes to the way to play.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

TSR insiders have said that while many factors led to the fall of TSR, setting glut was in fact one meaningful factor in that fall. Some players stopped identifying themselves as D&D players and were instead identifying themselves by the setting they played in. Rule systems were beginning to become incompatible with each other between settings. Players were starting to decline to buy products set in a other setting than their "own". This was leading to short term sales for each new setting but long term fewer sales overall. It was a real issue.

If you want to read more about it you might try GameSpy magazines excellent expose'/history piece on D&D. The relevant portion is article 3, which you can find here. Setting glut definitely payed a meaningful roll in brand dilution and the fall of TSR. Bill Slavicsek, then director of RPGs, miniatures and R&D at Wizards of the Coast, even gave it a name - the "Many Buckets" theory.

Funny you should mention Slavicek. I drifted away from AD&D around the time he was writing Dark Sun (Revised), and it was partly due to him. Or more specifically, because of rule drift, not setting bloat: stuff like Player's Option: Skills and Powers and the revised Dark Sun boxed set changed enough of the rules that it was starting to no longer feel like AD&D. (Eventually those things turned into 3E.) Don't get me wrong, I still bought all the Dark Sun (Revised) materials, but the more I bought the more disillusioned I got, and eventually there must have been a straw that broke the camel's back.

So anyway, I personally will take Slavicek's opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[painted_klown]

What do you think of the Starter Set for 5E?

I like the starter set, however, I do have my "quibbles" with it. Mainly two things, that center around one issue. The issue of character creation.

If it were me, I would have "amped up" the starter box a bit. Instead of the condensed version of the basic rules, I would like to have seen the full basic PDF in print. So basically, instead of getting the "Starter Set Rulebook" as is, I would have made it the full "Players D&D Basic Rules" in print form.

Also, I would have added a third book that is a print copy of the "Dungeon Master's D&D Basic Rules" in print form.

The LMoP book, I would leave alone.

I would have included a heavier stock (thicker/sturdier) copy of the full 3 page character sheet that can be photocopied to suit the groups needs, and explain character creation for those groups who want to go that route. I would also leave in the pre-generated characters, to allow for groups who just want to dive in as it is now.

Make it a TRUE starter set, not just an adventure in a box. The words starter set are a bit of a misnomer IMO. Yes, it gets people playing, but not their own characters. The reason I find this so important is because of my own group. Every single session felt like they wanted nothing more than to be done with the starter set , so they could roll up their own characters and play the "real" game. This is literally what I heard from my group, and it was frustrating because no matter how much I explained,they didn't feel like they were playing the "real" game when using pre-gen characters.

I would package the box so that the first thing you see laying under the dice is a piece of paper the says "Read Me First" in bold print. On this paper, it will explain some of the stuff I mentioned in my previous post, but go on to explain all of the various books inside the box. State what they are for, why they are there, and how to use them.

Since this is a hypothetical about how to keep D&D making money, there is something else I would add into the box, and to the WotC product line-up. That thing is paper pawns (ala PF). Yes, you read that correctly. I would LOVE to see WotC produce paper pawns. Include the pawns necessary for the pre-generated characters (male & female) + enough for all of the important NPCs + monster encounters. Then toss in a nice gridded playmat and call it good.

I actually bought the Pathfinder Starter Box prior to buying the 5E box and thought the PF box was nicer. It contains more "loot" (so-to-speak) and the included books are of a higher quality (production quality). Don't get me wrong, I LOVE 5E, but Paizo smoked WotC when it came to creating an enticing starter/beginner box.

I think WotC could make a bunch of money by making paper pawns. Do a pawn set for all of the adventure paths, a set for each monster manual (when released), etc. I know guys who buy the AP from Paizo, and then buy the corresponding box of pawns to run the AP. I would do exactly that myself and wish SO badly that WotC would offer the same. Ease of usage with their product by buying an additional product!!!

Minis are expensive (IMO) and are randomized. Pawns are MUCH more cost effective and NOT randomized. They would then have TWO products to sell for each adventure path or module created. As it is, I am using my PF pawns and playmat for my 5E games. It's like money for the taking if only they (WotC) would do it!!!