How would you handle this?

[CombatWombat51]

There are two ways I would resolve this. If a player said they were specifically watching for the guy with the stick to beat somebody with it, I'd have the characters watching and the staff guy roll init, but the staff guy would get a bonus. Otherwise, if they were just being wary, I would let him strike first, though not against flat-footed PC's, since they're aware of the threat. If they were just talking as friends, and staff guy whapped them, I'd say they were flat-footed. And likeway, if the PC's did the attacking.

My logic is that, you can go ahead and roll initiative as soon as they start chatting. Everybody is delaying until something interesting happens. Once initiative gets to staff guy's number, he attacks. So whether or not you roll initiative, and whether or not staff guy wins that initiative roll, he's going to attack first as long as all the other combatants are basically delaying.

I know that might fly in the face of some rules, but that's my logic on it, and how I've always ruled it (as well as my fellow DM's from the same group). I think the idea of saying "as soon as he lifts his staff to strike, I'll punch him" is silly. I would let a player try that, and to resolve it, I'd have staff dude and punch dude make opposed Initiative checks, but I'd give staff guy a bonus of about +5 to +10, depending on how I figure the guy would fight, and any other immidiate circumstances (distraction, who was talking, etc). If I was getting really picky, I might start with a base of +5, then allow the difference between a Bluff and Sense Motive check to modify that +5.

Anyhow, none of this last paragraph has come up in my campaign, but the situation you've described has. As my players and I see it, there's a certain advantage to acting first, ya know, initiating the conflict. There's a reason why sucker punches work well in real life. The attacker just has to swing. The defender has to notice that he's being swung on, has to process that information, decide on the best course of action (ducking, punching back, etc), and acting on it. The initiater has the advantage.

But like I said, that's just how we rule things in our campaign, and how we've done it for years. We haven't had any problems.

 

[dcollins]

Questions: (1, 2, 3, 4)

I agree with the first respondent that the answers are "no, no, no, and maybe, depending on initiative".

Determining who acts first when two parties are facing each other is exactly what initiative is there for. By the rules as written, you cannot take combat actions such as full defense or ready-an-action outside of actual combat turns. Surprise isn't possible if you're openly seeing the attacker.

 

[the Jester]

The party is approached by another group that could potentially be dangerous, but so far walks up to them calmly. One of the NPCs comes closer to talk and has a walking staff in his hand, which could be used as a drawn weapon.

Questions:

1. Can a party member say he is going full defense before any initiative is rolled?

No, you can only use total defense in combat. I'd let him start the initiative when he did this- see point 3 below, actually.

2. Can a party member say he is holding an action in case the NPC tries to attack (again before init is even rolled)?

No; again, you have to be on initiative to delay or ready an action. Again, though, I'd let him choose to start the combat (which might not actually have combat in it if everyone was friendly) if he wanted.

3. Can the guy with the staff get a surprise attack if he suddenly goes on the offensive?

Maybe- I'd give everyone a Sense Motive against his Bluff check to get an action in the surprise round, in normal initiative sequence. Likewise, if the pcs decided to spring a surprise attack on him, I'd give the npcs a Sense Motive to act in the surprise round. If the pc was just going full defense and the npcs made their sense motive checks they'd prolly figure that one out too- and might ready actions or something but wouldn't necessarily start a fight over it (assuming they weren't already hostile).

4. Is the party considered Flat Footed even when they suspect an attack?

Until you act in a combat you are flat-footed, so yes.

Hope this helps!

 

[italianranma]

I had two similar situations that happened in a previous game.
1st: The PCs were on there way to a (supposedly) abandoned temple and met a NPC on his way back from the temple. The talk started getting ugly and one of the PCs thought he'd threaten the NPC by drawing his sword. I ruled combat started as soon as he did that. Here's my reasoning; Seeing the sword about to come out my NPC wants to take a combat action (casting a spell). You could do it outside of combat, but then my PC might've argued "don't I get an attack of opportunity?" so we rolled for init. My NPC won and cast his spell while my PC was reaching for his sword.

Another situation was the PCs realised they were being followed, so they duck into an alley, round a corner, and the same trigger-happy PC wants to ready an action to chop off his pursuer's head. Readying an action is a combat action, so I had them roll initiative (despite the fact that the NPCs were at least a double-move behind them, and had no idea that combat was about to start. In fact they were friendly NPCs shouting "Wait, wait. Don't run.") When the NPCs rounded the corner I had them roll initiative just like new combatants that are unaware. Even if the NPCs had won init, the first action was my PC's readied action, which in fact did chop off the NPCs head.

Really its all about when do you call for the roll.

I agree with Zad except in examples 3 and 4

In example 3 if the NPC with the drawn weapon suddenly attacks. I'd give him a bluff opposed by the defender's sense motive to see if he gets a surprise round.

And finally with Flat-footedness until the PC's take their first combat action, they're flat-footed.

You know, now that I've thought about it for awhile I'm pretty confused about the whole thing. nevermind what I said.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Any player/PC can force initiative to be rolled at any time and perform actions that may or may not be perceived as hostile, e.g. have a Readied attack action. Doing so may make the PC look paranoid and cause the NPCs to reassess how to interact with the party. Of course the NPC(s) may win initiative; italianranma's 1st example is particularly good one here.

On short time scales, the PCs should have absolute control over whether they are in initiative or not. The DM should impose common sense on long time scales.

As a rule of thumb, surprise presumes complete unawareness of the attacker, not merely lack of awareness the attacker intends or is capable of causing harm. I can imagine exceptions where surprise results after an opposed Bluff check or some such, but those should be very exceptional (or your players will form the habit of chanting "Spot check. Sense Motive check." at you every time you mention a new NPC).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In example 3 if the NPC with the drawn weapon suddenly attacks. I'd give him a bluff opposed by the defender's sense motive to see if he gets a surprise round.

I will disagree here. You are making it too easy. Any Rogue with a good Bluff and Initiative can trivially exploit this tact to devastating effect.

 

[BSF]

I will disagree here. You are making it too easy. Any Rogue with a good Bluff and Initiative can trivially exploit this tact to devastating effect.

I'm not sure that is necessarily a problem though. A lot will depend on the style game you want to run. Realistically, how often will this crop up in a game? If you are in an environment where it crops up often, you have other, societal, limitations you can impose. The PC will quickly gain a reputation as somebody that cannot be trusted. Everyone will avoid the PC. In some games, this might be appropriate and fun. In others, it won't work. Before allowing a trick like this to get a "cheap shot" in, think about the long term impact on your game. If you aren't comfortable with it, just use an initiative check.

 

[rushlight]

The party is approached by another group that could potentially be dangerous, but so far walks up to them calmly. One of the NPCs comes closer to talk and has a walking staff in his hand, which could be used as a drawn weapon.

Questions:

1. Can a party member say he is going full defense before any initiative is rolled?

2. Can a party member say he is holding an action in case the NPC tries to attack (again before init is even rolled)?

3. Can the guy with the staff get a surprise attack if he suddenly goes on the offensive?

4. Is the party considered Flat Footed even when they suspect an attack?

I disagree with the idea that players "can't" do any of these things before init has been rolled. Are you the DM in this situation? Here's how I would handle it:

First: Was the approaching party planning on attacking the players? If so, the DM knows this and should act accordingly. Let's assume the DM says, "You see a party approaching you, they have no weapons drawn and are waving in a friendly nature - what do you do?" and secretly he's planning an ambush. The players are a suspicious lot, and they say "We're going Full Defense, and we're holding an action incase they attack!" Well, the jig is up - it's time to roll for initiative. But the actions the players have declared have already taken place. It's like they got a suprise round, since they reacted before the DM could tell them the party was attacking. So roll init, the players have their held actions, and start at the top.

Second: If you weren't planning an ambush, you could react as above, but in during the combat rounds don't have the other party attack. This is good just to keep your players on their toes. If it's a minor encounter, and they really suprised you, you can just let them hold their readied actions, and not bother wasting time with init rolls (since you aren't attacking them anyway). That is, unless your players want to attack first, then they would get the suprise round and you'd roll init.

Third: If you wanted the party ambushed, I'd secretly roll a spot check for each player vs the lowest bluff check of the attacking party - if they all fail then you'd describe the approching party and their attack without giving the players a chance to respond. If someone made their spot check, you can go straight to init and let the fun begin!

 

[Li Shenron]

The party is approached by another group that could potentially be dangerous, but so far walks up to them calmly. One of the NPCs comes closer to talk and has a walking staff in his hand, which could be used as a drawn weapon.

Questions:

1. Can a party member say he is going full defense before any initiative is rolled?

2. Can a party member say he is holding an action in case the NPC tries to attack (again before init is even rolled)?

3. Can the guy with the staff get a surprise attack if he suddenly goes on the offensive?

4. Is the party considered Flat Footed even when they suspect an attack?

Mah, if I have to be honest, I'd say there is not much difference with a situation when you have only a few seconds to react. By default (and with this I mean: by following the core rules) all the PCs are acting the fastest and best they can. When using the normal Initiative rules they are already aware and careful.

1. NO. Luckily some posters above noticed that it gives a dodge bonus which won't apply when flatfooted (see 4.) and we can avoid the most painful discussion - for a while. You can think if you wish that it doesn't help to be dodging until there's something to dodge. If you lose Initiative, the opponent has managed to caught you "partially surprised" (in a general sense... there is surprise round!).

2. NO. I suppose you mean to ready an action, but Initiative represents well enough that both opponents are ready to strike. The variant rule to always play a surprise round even if none is really surprised helps in this case.

3. NO, according to your description I wouldn't give him that. It could be different if he approached unarmed and friendly and then suddenly drew a weapon and strike.

4. YES. It's another basic disadvantage of losing Initiative. I would use this rule even for a duel, when both opponents have really no chance to be "caught unprepared".

 

[Darklone]

Nice use for the spell Misdirection. Tell the players their foe signals to talk and walks towards them... they might group together and you can catch them all in one area of effect spell