doktorstick
First Post
Cast 5'-step, touch. Or cast, touch.
How would you keep a Frenzied Beserker from killing the whole party?
- Thread starter Corwin the Confused
- Start date
Artoomis
First Post
You guys are quite right, it's easy to avoid the AoO for the spell.
The FB has a problem the barbarian does not - he cannot choose to stop raging (except with a saving throw). He also cannot choose to stop attacking.
The barbarian's rage is not bezerk - he can stop attacxking, he can accept healing, etc.
The FB goes bezerk. He attacks his friends. He won't accpet healing - thinking it to be an attack.
Thus the FB has a much greater chance of dying from his Con going back to normal after Raging than the barbarian.
It's the difference between a controlled Rage and an uncontrolled Rage that makes the FB pretty much unplayable as a PC.
Unless, of course, I am completely misunderstanding the class.
The FB has a problem the barbarian does not - he cannot choose to stop raging (except with a saving throw). He also cannot choose to stop attacking.
The barbarian's rage is not bezerk - he can stop attacxking, he can accept healing, etc.
The FB goes bezerk. He attacks his friends. He won't accpet healing - thinking it to be an attack.
Thus the FB has a much greater chance of dying from his Con going back to normal after Raging than the barbarian.
It's the difference between a controlled Rage and an uncontrolled Rage that makes the FB pretty much unplayable as a PC.
Unless, of course, I am completely misunderstanding the class.
We'll see
My PC just took his first level in the Frenzied Berserker prestige class last session. Today is the frst time I will get to play him with his new abilities. I'll let you all know how it goes.
Personally I think all of those who think this class is unplayable are metagaming just a bit too much. Hell, I'm the whole reason Limper is so up in arms about this(I play in the same campaign.)
Personally I think this class has tremendous potential for great role-playing. I also don't see much difference between a Frenzied Berserker and a mage who can cast fireballs. Since you all like to metagame so much try this on for size..........
What do you do if the party mage is dominated in a fight and is forced to start dropping fireballs and phantasmal killers on his allies? Would the party(if they survived) decide to take "scythes to his throat and coup de grace" him while he slept? Probably not; and no "reasonable" party would to a FB either. By the time a PC could take levels in FB it is the dominated wizard scenario could also be happening.
Quit metagaming and play the darn game.
As to the original question about how to help out. I'll repeat mainly what ohters have said:
1.Work on getting that will save up. Increase wisdom through items and level-ups.
2.Once the party is aware that thier tank can sometimes not control his rage make sure to have illusion spells ready. The class description says the FB attacks perceived "foes" before friends. Make sure he doesn't run out of foes.
3. Don't fight close to this guy!!!!!!!! If you are noticing enemies running scarce hide or run until your friend calms down.
Limper and I will report back from time to time and let you know how the class works out in our game. Personally I think my PC will be killed in battle(we are in a campaign focused on Giant slaying) long before he can harm a friend.
My PC just took his first level in the Frenzied Berserker prestige class last session. Today is the frst time I will get to play him with his new abilities. I'll let you all know how it goes.
Personally I think all of those who think this class is unplayable are metagaming just a bit too much. Hell, I'm the whole reason Limper is so up in arms about this(I play in the same campaign.)
Personally I think this class has tremendous potential for great role-playing. I also don't see much difference between a Frenzied Berserker and a mage who can cast fireballs. Since you all like to metagame so much try this on for size..........
What do you do if the party mage is dominated in a fight and is forced to start dropping fireballs and phantasmal killers on his allies? Would the party(if they survived) decide to take "scythes to his throat and coup de grace" him while he slept? Probably not; and no "reasonable" party would to a FB either. By the time a PC could take levels in FB it is the dominated wizard scenario could also be happening.
Quit metagaming and play the darn game.
As to the original question about how to help out. I'll repeat mainly what ohters have said:
1.Work on getting that will save up. Increase wisdom through items and level-ups.
2.Once the party is aware that thier tank can sometimes not control his rage make sure to have illusion spells ready. The class description says the FB attacks perceived "foes" before friends. Make sure he doesn't run out of foes.
3. Don't fight close to this guy!!!!!!!! If you are noticing enemies running scarce hide or run until your friend calms down.
Limper and I will report back from time to time and let you know how the class works out in our game. Personally I think my PC will be killed in battle(we are in a campaign focused on Giant slaying) long before he can harm a friend.
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doktorstick
First Post
Re: We'll see
Absolutely not. There is no comparison. The mage was _forced_ to do it magically. By enemy spells. The FB, in this case, is _choosing_ to pursue this path and use his abilities.
/ds
durath said:
Absolutely not. There is no comparison. The mage was _forced_ to do it magically. By enemy spells. The FB, in this case, is _choosing_ to pursue this path and use his abilities.
/ds
doktorstick
First Post
Re: We'll see
Obviously I don't know the make-up of your players, but how would you feel if everytime you went frenzy, your party members attempted to kill you (a little eye-for-an-eye)? And probably succeeding on more than one occassion...?
/ds
durath said:
Obviously I don't know the make-up of your players, but how would you feel if everytime you went frenzy, your party members attempted to kill you (a little eye-for-an-eye)? And probably succeeding on more than one occassion...?
/ds
James McMurray
First Post
Note that I never claimed the class was unplayable. All I said was that if I were a PC in a group with that character, I would seriously think about leaving as soon as his frenzy pointed him at me. The same would hold true if there were a mage in the party that consistently fireballed me (by choice).
The class is playable, but it may very well cause more problems than its worth.
The class is playable, but it may very well cause more problems than its worth.
jury is out
Couple of other items....
The effects of Rage and Frenzy stack so the FB does benefit from the +2 morale bonus to will saves which wil aid in helping him end his frenzy when he chooses.
To the poster who stated that the FB and mage don't compare because the FB is choosing to pursue his path.......
Is not the mage also choosing to pursue his path of greater arcane magics knowing full well that there are magics out there weilded by others who could subvert his will and force him to use his magic against his allies?
It is the same thing. People could whine all day about "what if" scenarios. Bottom line is very few(if any) have played this class so at this point this is all specualtion. Also, far to many of you, IMO, are using out of character knowledge when you think of this class. Try thinking from your characters point of view about an ally who has tapped this incredible destructive power but has trouble controlling it at times.
STOP THE METAGAMING MADNESS.
Couple of other items....
The effects of Rage and Frenzy stack so the FB does benefit from the +2 morale bonus to will saves which wil aid in helping him end his frenzy when he chooses.
To the poster who stated that the FB and mage don't compare because the FB is choosing to pursue his path.......
Is not the mage also choosing to pursue his path of greater arcane magics knowing full well that there are magics out there weilded by others who could subvert his will and force him to use his magic against his allies?
It is the same thing. People could whine all day about "what if" scenarios. Bottom line is very few(if any) have played this class so at this point this is all specualtion. Also, far to many of you, IMO, are using out of character knowledge when you think of this class. Try thinking from your characters point of view about an ally who has tapped this incredible destructive power but has trouble controlling it at times.
STOP THE METAGAMING MADNESS.
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Templetroll
Explorer
Re: We'll see
I think you're being insulting to those who disagree with you by painting all objections as metagaming.
Sure thing. The party can roleplay being scared for their lives and slaying that which most threatens them, the foes first and the FB next.
A reasonable party would try to incapacitate or injure the DW (Dominated Wizard) to cause him to have to make Concentration checks to get the spells off. the party would injure the wizard sufficiently to cause him to fall below 0 hits so that he was no longer a threat to them and they could then deal with the Dominator. A DW would not die due to going below 0 in this case, but I think a FB knocked down by the party may very well die. Seems reasonable to me.
Others have pointed out that the DW is acting under the influence of others while the FB is choosing a lifestyle that is causing the problem. A DW is not likely to occur in nearly every battle, a FB is.
Hmm, the rage of a barbarian has seen your character through many battles thus far. Quit metagaming and take the FB levels but don't use the Frenzy unless there is a reason beyond normal battle to cause the unfettered frenzy. If you are the last one in the party standing; this would be very dramatic and not likely to harm any party members. 
If your child is slain by the bad guys; this was the basis of a nordic saga - the father went berserk when he saw his son killed. He leaped into the foes longship and hacked and slashed his way down the length of the boat killing the entire enemy crew. He then had a heart attack and died. (I see that as he was too injured to survive when he came out of the Frenzy) Very dramatic, wonderful roleplaying if you save the Frenzy only for special events.
The party wizard has to hold back on her abilities and actions so the FB doesn't have to?!? I don't think so.
Yep; let the fight begin, the FB goes into Frenzy and then the party retreats until the noise stops. Either the FB has taken out the foes and calmed down or died. Then the party can take out the injured weakend enemy survivors. Sounds like the battle plan my characters would follow.
The party is going to try to survive and keep everyone alive; that's how it works best in D&D. I think it is much more likely for you to kill someone else before they decide to let you die and stay dead.
I hope you have fun with the character and that the others in the party also have fun being with him.
durath said:
I think you're being insulting to those who disagree with you by painting all objections as metagaming.
Sure thing. The party can roleplay being scared for their lives and slaying that which most threatens them, the foes first and the FB next.
A reasonable party would try to incapacitate or injure the DW (Dominated Wizard) to cause him to have to make Concentration checks to get the spells off. the party would injure the wizard sufficiently to cause him to fall below 0 hits so that he was no longer a threat to them and they could then deal with the Dominator. A DW would not die due to going below 0 in this case, but I think a FB knocked down by the party may very well die. Seems reasonable to me.
Others have pointed out that the DW is acting under the influence of others while the FB is choosing a lifestyle that is causing the problem. A DW is not likely to occur in nearly every battle, a FB is.
Hmm, the rage of a barbarian has seen your character through many battles thus far. Quit metagaming
and take the FB levels but don't use the Frenzy unless there is a reason beyond normal battle to cause the unfettered frenzy. If you are the last one in the party standing; this would be very dramatic and not likely to harm any party members. If your child is slain by the bad guys; this was the basis of a nordic saga - the father went berserk when he saw his son killed. He leaped into the foes longship and hacked and slashed his way down the length of the boat killing the entire enemy crew. He then had a heart attack and died. (I see that as he was too injured to survive when he came out of the Frenzy) Very dramatic, wonderful roleplaying if you save the Frenzy only for special events.
The party wizard has to hold back on her abilities and actions so the FB doesn't have to?!? I don't think so.
Yep; let the fight begin, the FB goes into Frenzy and then the party retreats until the noise stops. Either the FB has taken out the foes and calmed down or died. Then the party can take out the injured weakend enemy survivors. Sounds like the battle plan my characters would follow.
The party is going to try to survive and keep everyone alive; that's how it works best in D&D. I think it is much more likely for you to kill someone else before they decide to let you die and stay dead.
I hope you have fun with the character and that the others in the party also have fun being with him.
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doktorstick
First Post
Re: jury is out
In fact, I would suggest that you are metagaming to overcome your character's natural, and burning desire, to be in a frenzied state. Why would the FB want any reason what-so-ever to come out of it? It is part of who he is and should want to embrace it. If, at FB L1, he is already trying to overcome this ability, I would suggest that he really didn't (and shouldn't) be one.
Word of advice to the party--kill him and knock him back down to pure barbarian if you really care for the character--and your own necks.
/ds
You can twist it however you want to rationalize your decision.durath said:
Most of us are thinking about impact of the _game_ should the FB be played true. If your DM is not conerned about being true to the class, he can devise many ways, or heck, even remove the uncontrollable rage, to allow you to play the class.durath said:
In fact, I would suggest that you are metagaming to overcome your character's natural, and burning desire, to be in a frenzied state. Why would the FB want any reason what-so-ever to come out of it? It is part of who he is and should want to embrace it. If, at FB L1, he is already trying to overcome this ability, I would suggest that he really didn't (and shouldn't) be one.
Word of advice to the party--kill him and knock him back down to pure barbarian if you really care for the character--and your own necks.
/ds
First, the Dominated Wizard gets several saves vs. attacking his friends, since it would be against his aligment's wishes, as well as the host, just like he would recieve a save if he was ordered to kill himself. So, there's big chances for him coming out of it. Considering the emmense will saves of a Wizard, he'll likely make it.
Secondly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but D&D is about teamwork. It seems to me that any character who's going to attack his teammates when they're weakened by a fight is going against teamwork, because A) He's attacking his teammates, and B) using up resources because they have to cast spells to stop him/distract him/get away from him/heal up after he beats the crap out of them.
It seems that it's the same thing with a fighter who fights *everything*. Runs into every battle headlong, and starts fights that the group may not be able to handle, or are on low reserves. Sure, he's RPing his character, but he's costing the group some trouble.
Secondly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but D&D is about teamwork. It seems to me that any character who's going to attack his teammates when they're weakened by a fight is going against teamwork, because A) He's attacking his teammates, and B) using up resources because they have to cast spells to stop him/distract him/get away from him/heal up after he beats the crap out of them.
It seems that it's the same thing with a fighter who fights *everything*. Runs into every battle headlong, and starts fights that the group may not be able to handle, or are on low reserves. Sure, he's RPing his character, but he's costing the group some trouble.
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