How would you keep a Frenzied Beserker from killing the whole party?

[James McMurray]

STOP THE METAGAMING MADNESS.

You mean like having a frenzied berserker suddenly switch to defensive fighting with full cover from a tower shield bcause his player knows that the people he is now attacking are friends?

Is not the mage also choosing to pursue his path of greater arcane magics knowing full well that there are magics out there weilded by others who could subvert his will and force him to use his magic against his allies?

Everyone in the party chooses more power (they gain levels). They do this knowing that there are things out there that can dominate them. However, to compare that to someone who willingly turns himself into a danger to his friends is just a wee bit idiotic.

Also, far to many of you, IMO, are using out of character knowledge when you think of this class. Try thinking from your characters point of view about an ally who has tapped this incredible destructive power but has trouble controlling it at times.

What out of character knowledge? A guy I thought was a friend suddenly attacked me in battle. Maybe the first time I let it slide, but the second or third? I doubt it. To let that happen would require acting upon the out of game knowledge that his character is played by my friend.

Also, in character I would view someone tapping into that power and being unable to control it as a danger tomyself and my friends. I would act to try to remedy that danger as best as possible, in character.

 

[Templetroll]

Re: jury is out

To the poster who stated that the FB and mage don't compare because the FB is choosing to pursue his path.......

Is not the mage also choosing to pursue his path of greater arcane magics knowing full well that there are magics out there weilded by others who could subvert his will and force him to use his magic against his allies?

Man, this reaqsoning is so warped.... *sigh* It is not likely for the wizard to get dominated in nearly every battle. It is very likely the FB will frenzy as often as he can. Really different things, not at all alike.

It is the same thing. People could whine all day about "what if" scenarios.

Just like the one you seem to favor in this discussion.

Try thinking from your characters point of view about an ally who has tapped this incredible destructive power but has trouble controlling it at times.

The big jerk with the bad temper has gone psychotic and now tries to kill us along with our foes. Must be some foul thing done by an Eeeevil enemy! We must quest to cure our friend above all else!

STOP THE METAGAMING MADNESS.

I will if you will.

 

[Ferret]

2 tumbling rogues+rope and rope use, a wizard with summon "heavy things" and some masterwork manacles

 

[Metalsmith]

Side Tangent:

You can sense when someone passes a saving throw and your spell fails? Where does it say that? That'd be good to know.

The very same page. 1 paragraph above it.

Metalsmith

 

[Metalsmith]

The character suffers a -2 to AC when raging. Why would that character then use Fighting Defensively to get a +2 dodge bonus to AC?

Because you CAN.
Just because it's inefficient doens't mean you can't do it.

Why would someone frenzied merely trip a foe instead of attacking to kill them?
[/B

Because He wants to stand over his foes as he finishes them off. and the same thing for Bull Rush. You like to press your foes up against a wall so they can feel utterly helpless as you finish them off.

Why would they use a defensive item like a shield?

Because He wants some additional AC. Before the fight he remembers to strap one on. You get the AC bonus from a Shield even when you are Flat-Footed. and again the Rules for Frenzy dont say you can't use shields.

I could see using a shield if the barbarian used it for an attack, however; that makes sense. The minus from a tower shield would merely annoy the frenzied character and get the shield thrown at an enemy.

Unless you are fighting a Rogue and you don't want him sneak attacking you so you easily accept the -4 to hit from cover so he can't Stab you in the Junk. And the Cover works to protect you from other "Bad Guys" in the area.

This is how I would run it in my campaign.

Darn, should have said that in the beginning.
The House Rules Forum is over that way.

Metalsmith

 

[Metalsmith]

Here's a question.

If, when you are frenzied, you see all those around you as enemies, WHY, in an in character manner, would you forgo your saving throw?

That's just like volunteering to fail that enemy wizard's fireball. You see everyone around you as an enemy. Therefor, why would you volunteer to fail?

When you are Raging and Frenzying there is still some cognitive precesses going on. You can still distinguish Friend from Foe. This is reflected by the rule that says he doesn't attack the nearest creature untill all the foes are dead. You can use all skills and abilites that don't require Patience or Concentration.

Metalsmith

 

[Metalsmith]

And, since you are in a killing frenzy, not a hugging frenzy, draw your dagger before you grapple the wizard, that way you get to kill him and avoid those nasty spell effects.

You Bet, and make shure you do it while Power Attacking and Fighting Defensively.

Metalsmith

 

[Metalsmith]

Re: We'll see

Hell, I'm the whole reason Limper is so up in arms about this(I play in the same campaign.)

That explains why it seemed he had a personal stake in it.

Quit metagaming and play the darn game.

Metagaming is everywhere. It's the reason why Wizards cast Reflex and Will Save spells at Fighters, Reflex Saves at Clerics, Fort and Reflex at other Wizards, and Summon Monster Spells at Monks.

1.Work on getting that will save up. Increase wisdom through items and level-ups.

2.Once the party is aware that thier tank can sometimes not control his rage make sure to have illusion spells ready. The class description says the FB attacks perceived "foes" before friends. Make sure he doesn't run out of foes.

3. Don't fight close to this guy!!!!!!!! If you are noticing enemies running scarce hide or run until your friend calms down.

A few Other things.

1 Try comming out of your rage before you drop the last guy.

2 If your party also has a high AC fighter stand next to him. If he's got expertise when he fights Defensively your powerattack prolly won't hit.

3 Trade in your periapt of wisdom for a Periapt of Rage Countering. A Necklace of Resistance +5 25,000gp only vs Will Saves (1/3rd cost) = 9000gp only vs Recovering from Frenzy (1/2 cost) 4500gp ?

4. What's your Barb's Sense Motive? afther the last bad guy drops eveyone can "Play Dead"

Metalsmith

 

[Valicor]

Maybe afew more ideas would help since there haven't been any for awhile.

1. Wall of Force, set as a sphere, keep him trapped.

2. Cube of Force item if your in a high magic campaign.

3. Bead of force. Not sure of your reflex save. (This can get exspensive, much like number 2)

4. How about a darkness spell, scroll or wand. He can't see anyone about a minute passes, with out any action agaisnt him, I think it would be safe to say the enconter is over.

A wand would cost about 4500, half if you have your party wizard or cleric make it. And that can block end 50 Frenzies. That would come out to around 90gp per frenzy, at a rate of 1 frenzy a day, sounds good.

5. Epeditious retreat, double your running speed. Don't forget he can't even run after you. There is only a problem when you are the fighter in heavy plate.

6. How about since he has a low will save, use some of those charm and compulsion spells agaisnt him. Maybe even provide an illusion to make him think the battle is over.

There are so many options out there, so instead of calling him idiotic or irresponsible or desruptive to the party, which seems to be the general attitude of many people here, suggest ideas to help. Simply saying No doesn't make progress, thinking about solutions and having an open mind does however.

My 2 cents.

 

[Templetroll]

Because you CAN.
Just because it's inefficient doesn't mean you can't do it.

We read the same words and come to a different conclusion. I don't see it as "inefficient", I see it as "doesn't work that way". A raging barbarian "becomes reckless and less able to defend himself." This is shown by the -2 to AC. I do not see any action like Fighting Defensively as being allowed when enraged or frenzied. It is a sane and rational mind that can take actions to overcome hindrances or difficulties; raging and frenzy are not that! Okay, an insane person can use a shield and dodge also but I mean a non-enraged and non-frenzied person.

Because He wants to stand over his foes as he finishes them off. and the same thing for Bull Rush. You like to press your foes up against a wall so they can feel utterly helpless as you finish them off.

I can see the point as Trip could add drama to the combat; it could be good roleplaying, not just because the book didn't say no. I had no problem with Bull Rush as that is a reasonable action for someone enraged to do.

Because He wants some additional AC. Before the fight he remembers to strap one on. You get the AC bonus from a Shield even when you are Flat-Footed. and again the Rules for Frenzy dont say you can't use shields.

Please see the part about "reckless" and "less able to defend" again. I find that a vital aspect of rage and frenzy and don't understand how anyone else can miss it. It is sane and reasonable to use a shield to defend with; a raging madman does not take sane and reasonable actions in the midst of bloodlust. i don't see a shield as anything other than a big 'thing' on the arm of a FB, it is not being used by him.

Unless you are fighting a Rogue and you don't want him sneak attacking you so you easily accept the -4 to hit from cover so he can't Stab you in the Junk. And the Cover works to protect you from other "Bad Guys" in the area.

Rogue want to stab me in junk! Rogue bad, rogue die now! Me not coward like Rogue who hides! Me get rid of this razzlefrazzit shield so me can hit bad people harder! Two hands on the weapon get the extra damage bonus that would be most entertaining to a FB.

Darn, should have said that in the beginning.
The House Rules Forum is over that way.

I presume a was left out here. I'll remember to not make that concession in a post in future.