Humans - Most Powerful Race in 3e?

Illvillainy said:
Flexibility won't help you make ranged attacks in a pitch black cave, being fast won't help you crawl through an opening big enough for Small sized characters, being able to cleave you enemies in two a starting level won't help you detect the entrance to the secret passage their leader fled down or notice the slight crooked brickwork that may hint at at. What happens when the only witness to a murder is an urbanated fox?

The only reason I can see why humans are overpowered is that DMs don't stress and utilise the disadvantages of being normal.

I hear there are torches, and continual light can be cast on your bow. They throw light as far as 60' Darkvision. There are also 9000 ways to get darkvision, class abilities, etc, that dont require a race. Shrink will get me through those spaces. In addition to this, if the whole party isnt small, this benefits one part of it only. I've yet to see a party of all small characters. I just think its
 

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well, sounds like his mind is made up.

I know that any time a party needs a rogue, I go with elf. Without multi-classing, they get several excellent martial weapon proficiencies and the bonus to dexterity helps make them betters at all the essential skills a rogue needs. If the GM allows it, a Whisper Gnome. Ah, the dangerous power of sneaking.

Other classes can vary of course and I've rarely seen anything as useful as the elf-rogue in my playing, but I have a lot of players who enjoy the dwarven fighter. Proficiency automatically with the dwarven war axe is a big plus and if you're using something like Races of Stone, the racial substition levels make this combination, dwarf-fighter, even better.

So once again, it boils down to opinion.
 

I'm very happy with the races in 3/3.5e. I love that versatilty is the human's schtick. Does everything balance out exactly? I'm not sure. But it promotes humans as the default choice, which reflects campaign realities (at least in most campaigns, including mine), while the other races are still perfectly valid options if you have something particular in mind.

That said, when I say "other races", I really mean dwarves and elves. Half races are enough in my campaign world that I discourage them as PC choices (not that anyone has ever complained). Likewise, no one has ever expressed any interest in playing the small races. I'm not saying those races aren't balanced, just that we wouldn't know because we never gave them the time of day.
 

Humans have the advantage of flexibility. Other races have more or less "built-in feats"; as a human you get to choose which ones you want. Since "choice" is a major buzzword in the modern world, humans seem preferable.

Looking at my current campaign, however, a campaign which uses Monte's AU, between 6 players with 2 characters each (they switch off which characters they use from session to session), we have the following:

4 humans
4 Litorians
2 Faen
1 Mojh
1 Verrik

Why so many litorians? Because players find them cool. Why humans? Because they are flexible. And why the others? Specific tastes for given class-and-race options, as well as a desire to be "different".
 

I like humans

I always play human unless my character concept is specificly oriented at a nonhuman race. Humans are the "default" choice for me.

For example, if I want to play an arcane archer then I am (naturally) forced to take an elf by concept (as well as rules). If I want to play a dwarven paladin, then dwarf is part of my character conception. If I just wanted to play a paladin, then I'd take human because the race of the character was not part of the concept.

If I wanted to play a sorcerer/monk, then I'd play human. The concept is someone who jumps around and climbs really well (ala Spider-Man), and while any other race could work with that concept, the concept is not about the race, so I default to human.

Besides, humans rule! How can you argue with a FREE FEAT!?!? :)

When it comes to non-humans, I usually favor darkvision. Usually the choice is "free feat or darkvision", hmmm...

Ozmar the Munchkin
 

Well Doc, as far as a combat simulator, that Half-Orc is still one feat shy of the human, and that makes all the difference to me. Whether or not you can justify dropping your wis and cha or not. Is you do drop wis, I guarantee you will cause a TPK to the first level 2 wizard with charm, as you subsequently drop your whole team, my level 7 barbarian has a will save of +1, and I tell you, I fail every single will save, and always will.

None of the stats are throwaways, its what makes the human SO good. They get no penalties. They get only bonuses, and, IMO, of the bonuses that exist in D&D, extra skills and extra feats are the two absolute best that dont also come with a level adjustment. Call me crazy, but.

I dont like one dimensional characters, because in D&D, they tend to die. The fighter with the 5 wisdom has 1 good will save to death. The wizard with the 5 con is 1 fort save from death. And in both cases you'll fail any and every save.

I heard the "roleplaying perspective" of balance from White Wolf long enough. I dont accept it anymore. I want the rules to strive for balance, not for balance to be a joke, and characters to be an arms race of who can make the best templated d00d to wreck monsters fastest. I want a good reason to make a tiefling, beyond, they look cool and would be an interesting race to rp. Stat wise, they SUCK. There is nothing good about them. They should give me a level back to play one. It offends my sense of balance just to look at them. Many races strike me similarly.

When I look over race lists for a new campaign, I invariably come back to humans. They get the best bonuses and no penalties, and I just dont quite get that. I agree with the posters who said humans arent overpowered, most of the other races are underpowered, though. I think many of the +2/-2's could go to +2 and no penalty, in return for that feat they miss out on. If I were doing a homebrew, the first thing I'd do is rework the balance on the allowed races.
 

Seeten said:
For example, Elves get dex at the cost of con. I dont want to lose con, for a dex bonus. +5 bonus compared to +4 bonus, for example, just doesnt strike me as amazingly better.

It is if you are playing the ultimate archer, who almost never engages in melee. Or my current character, who has relatively low hitpoints, but his AC is so high, he doesn't have to really worry about it.

In D&D, the only stat most characters can afford to throw away is Charisma, and frankly, there are a lot of good skills attached to charisma.

Many character can throw away Wisdom. Spellcasters can throw away Strength. Character's that don't care about skill points can throw away Int. High hit point/heavily armored can throw away Dex. Character who don't get hit can throw away Con.

The conclusion I'm starting to reach is that humans may be the best race for you, because they are the best race for the type of character you like to play. Humans are deffinatly the best at somethings, but if you were looking for something else it a character, you might prefer a different race.

+2/-2/-2 is even worse. Its bad in every conceivable way. Whats more, I dont think the designers had a firm handle on how valuable strength is. It is not worth 2 lower stats. Not to me, and I am a powergamer.

Here I agree completely, and what really irks me is that it is completely inconsistant with the rest of the game design. Magic items don't cost different ammounts for different stats. Point buy is the same.
 
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Seeten said:
I hear there are torches, and continual light can be cast on your bow. They throw light as far as 60' Darkvision.
Torches are worthless when they are in your backpack while you are getting ambushed by drow who have put your 'night watchman' to sleep and have put out the fire in your camp.

That continual flame on that bow on yours... Well, with me as DM, you'd be a glorified pin cushion in no time.
There are also 9000 ways to get darkvision, class abilities, etc, that dont require a race.
True, but I thought we were focusing on low level characters?
Shrink will get me through those spaces.
If the party caster knows reduce person/has that perpared/has a scroll or wand ready, sure.
In addition to this, if the whole party isnt small, this benefits one part of it only...
You mean, small characters having an advantage over medium characters? This would be the desired effect.

All I'm saying is that a good DM will find ways to dis/advantage both humans and the other races, mechanics or no mechanics. You're welcome to have a different opinion though.
 

I still dont understand throwing away wisdom. Will Saves will kill you. Chucking strength is fine. Charisma, while I dont like to do it, is fine, but not wisdom.

Yeah, Joe is right. I am convinced. And I think Matthew is right too. I think they are the most powerful for my playstyle. I think many people agree with me. I chose races in 2nd, almost always demi-humans, because they were better, and the penalties were minor, and the benefits outweighed them. I have seen LA +1 races I thought worse than humans. I'll chalk it up to both humans being better for me and maybe a balance issue only. Certainly a style issue. I wouldnt run a campaign of my own with races as is, I can say that for sure.
 

MatthewJHanson said:
Here I agree completely, and what really irks me is that it is completely inconsistant with the rest of the game design. Magic items don't cost different ammounts for different stats. Point buy is the same.
Oh yes, me also. This is why I house rule half-orcs as having no Cha penalty, but rather -1 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information and Handle Animal checks.
 

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