Hunter Ranger : Can you use Str for RBAs on at-will powers using heavy thrown?

[Prestidigitalis]

The Rogue is more promising, allowing a trick and an at will in the same turn. Sly Flourish won't cut it and that's normally the best. But both Riposte Strike and Duellist's Flurry in the right hands could be nice, as could Deft Strike for a hide and throw on the same turn with light cover. Or a Rattling attack - with the shift 2 from something like Escape Artists Trick to allow you to move into position. Pretty cute.

That's... an interesting point. But you can't apply Backstab or the Weapon Finesse damage bonus (+2 to +5) so whatever you gain has to be better. And I'm not clear -- why does Sly Flourish not "cut it"?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Sly Flourish doesn't cut it because you get the weapon finesse damage bonus on your normal attacks. Dex 18/Cha 16 at first level and you're only looking at +1 damage from Sly Flourish over a more normal modified MBA - this doesn't come close to the utility of the human encounter power. The Rattling attack, the attack vs reflex, Deft Strike, and Duellists Flurry look like the options to me. All things that don't just do damage.

And I thought that the Sun Priests at will was melee only? The point of Sacred Flame would be to provide a ranged option.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Sly Flourish doesn't cut it because you get the weapon finesse damage bonus on your normal attacks.

Got it. I thought you might mean that it wouldn't work at all -- that you would not get the damage bonus for some reason.

 

[WalterKovacs]

One other note on the Str based hunter ranger: Their encounter power is not based on MBA's, it's a Dex vs. AC attack. Until there is a way to deal with that (probably in the class compendium when that comes out) having a bad Dex would leave you without one of the classes resources (and it's quite good, giving dazed (save/ends) or immobilize (save/ends) on a hit).

 

[Mr. Teapot]

Or you can even use some implement power which can be usable as a RBA such as Sorcerer's Acid Orb. A Half-Elf hunter can gain such a power via dilettante. Then, at paragon level, a half-elf PC can take Versatile Master feat to make it truly at-will.

It's "A basic attack with a weapon" in all the previewed powers. Which suggests that it shouldn't work with implement powers.

But if I'm a Half-elf using Magic Missile and took Arcane Implement Proficiency, am I using Magic Missile through a weapon (a heavy blade in this case)? It's probably not intended to be that way, but I could see some GMs accepting it. Which would make for some weird Half-Elves Hunters and Knights with Magic Missile once they get to Paragon tier, since they'd never miss again.

 

[DracoSuave]

It's "A basic attack with a weapon" in all the previewed powers. Which suggests that it shouldn't work with implement powers.

"A basic attack with a weapon" does not imply anything about implement powers that can be used as a basic attack. It implies merely that you must be using a weapon. A staff is a weapon, and an implement attack with a staff is using a basic attack with a weapon.

On top of that: Weapon Finesse says 'A melee basic attack' and all the rogue powers except Backstab state 'basic attack' or 'melee basic attack.' No power in the thief section states said attack must be a weapon power or weapon attack.

'Attack with a weapon' is not the same thing as 'a weapon attack' or 'a weapon power.' The first simply requires the accessory qualify as a weapon, and the latter two actually invoke the keywords of the power.

But if I'm a Half-elf using Magic Missile and took Arcane Implement Proficiency, am I using Magic Missile through a weapon (a heavy blade in this case)? It's probably not intended to be that way, but I could see some GMs accepting it.

It's a moot point. Backstab requires an attack roll as a trigger, and the tricks either require a damage roll, or buff an attack roll, or require a melee basic attack. Magic Missile does none of these.

Now, if you were a half-elf using Eldritch Strike, rogue tricks and backstab would work fine. Beast form druids are SOL, as the thief powers can't be used.

There's not a lot of powers that count as melee basic attacks.

Which would make for some weird Half-Elves Hunters and Knights with Magic Missile once they get to Paragon tier, since they'd never miss again.

They'd never make attack or damage rolls either, and that rules out the vast majority of anything the thief could do about the situation.

Also, Sneak Attack has never worked with powers that do not make attack rolls. Otherwise you'd have seen Paladin/Rogues.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

???

I didn't say anything about the thief. I was talking about the hunter ranger, who uses modified ranged basic attacks (which Magic Missile clearly is).

(I had also forgotten that they had errataed that feat that made Magic Missile a melee attack so that the feat was now shadar-kai only. Which means that Knights can't use the weird auto-hit function of MM. There's no way for a shadar-kai knight to get MM as an at-will at this point.)

 

[DracoSuave]

Before this starts: Magic Missile does not auto-hit. It auto-damages.

'Yeah, but I know that technically, but it acts as tho it auto-hits.'

Apparently not enough people understand this, so it has to be corrected again. Stop saying it auto-hits. It does no such thing.

???

I didn't say anything about the thief. I was talking about the hunter ranger, who uses modified ranged basic attacks (which Magic Missile clearly is).

Good point. Regardless, it doesn't matter. Both the scout and the hunter ranger builds require that you 'hit with a' or you 'hit or miss with a' or you 'make a damage roll' or 'make an attack roll' regarding the basic attacks they refer to.

Magic Missle never makes an attack roll, never makes a damage roll, never hits, and it never misses, so it never triggers an essential ranger's aspect.

About the only shinanegan that works here is the Hunter's at-will that allows them to make ranged basic attacks to every enemy adjacent to or in a targeted square. Bonuses to attack rolls, damage rolls, or that key off of the results of a hit or a miss can never work with Magic Missile.

(I had also forgotten that they had errataed that feat that made Magic Missile a melee attack so that the feat was now shadar-kai only. Which means that Knights can't use the weird auto-hit function of MM. There's no way for a shadar-kai knight to get MM as an at-will at this point.)

Again.... Magic Missile (the current one) does not and never has hit anything. Every stance a knight has says 'when you hit with a' which immediately precludes any sort of shinanegans involving Magic Missile as it never hits anything.

However, let's say, hypothetically, you DO hit with an Implement power that counts as a melee basic attack. You can only Power Strike as an e-fighter if you are using a weapon with that power, and if you do, the weapon stats are what power strike uses with it.